Eric Kim

Juliana Sohn:

Our guest today is Eric Kim, food writer for the New York Times. He has a cookbook coming out titled Korean American, which will be available at the end of March.

Catherine Hong:

A few days after our conversation we had the pleasure of meeting him in person when Juliana shot his portrait. One of the best parts of that meeting for me personally was that he suggested we meet at the Hungarian Pastry Shop, which is this legendary old, Columbia hangout where a lot of writers have written their books and turns out that he wrote much of Korean American sitting in the Hungarian. And it really brought me back to when I used to hang out there with my kids and eat cake after school. So it was so fun.

Juliana Sohn:

I was excited to open the gallery of his cookbook and there were a few recipes that caught my eye. He writes so convincingly about Spam that, for the first time in over 10 years, I ended up buying a can of Spam and trying out one of his recipes. I tried out the kimbap recipe, which is quite good. And I think the maple glazed Spam is the next one on my list.

Catherine Hong:

I have made that, it’s super yummy, easy. You can’t eat it every day, but it’s good! He’s really opened up the world of Korean American cooking because he’s not interested in authenticity at all. He’s taken a lot from his mom and from tradition, but he’s definitely put his own spin on it.

Juliana Sohn:

I was also really wowed by the memoir portion of the cookbook. He writes so beautifully — the connections that he makes with the food and cooking alongside of his mother, those stories are really beautifully told. So it came as no surprise to learn that Eric was a PhD student in English and that he has a strong writing background. We talked a lot about his observations and some of the connections that he has made. And I know that he has a lot of interesting ideas and less food -entric writing coming up in the future that I’m really looking forward to.

Catherine Hong:

Ok, I hope everyone enjoys listening to our conversation with Eric Kim.

Catherine Hong:

In the past year and a half, readers of the New York Times food section have come to know writer Eric Kim on an almost intimate level. We know that he bought his dad a record player for his 60th birthday. We know that as a kid growing up in Georgia, he loved playing in the greasy ball pit at McDonald’s. We even know that for his first date with his boyfriend, he made kimchi and mayo sandwiches. Eric’s official subject is food and his recipes for dishes like Gochugaru Salmon and Stouffer’s style mac and cheese have become cult favorites. But the food is always through his particular lens of growing up the son of Korean immigrants in Atlanta. Eric attended NYU and Columbia. And before joining the Times, he worked at the Food Network and Food52.

Catherine Hong:

Eric has just written his first cookbook, Korean American, which will be out in March. It’s a cookbook but also a memoir, with funny and poignant stories about his family. He did much of the work on it during a year he spent living back at home with his parents and cooking beside his mom, Jean. And he is joining us now from his boyfriend’s apartment in Philadelphia. It’s so nice to meet you, Eric. Thank you for joining us!

Eric Kim:

I’ve known about you guys for a while now. And I was delighted to get the email. And also, when you were going through the litany of personal anecdotes, I was like, “When did I say that?” So that was funny.

Juliana Sohn:

Do people come up to you and say they know all this information about you that’s pretty intimate? And does it shock you at all?

Eric Kim:

No, it doesn’t shock me. They usually just come up to me. It’s surprising during the pandemic, because I always have a mask on, you know? And it’s because of my hair I think. They identify the… Whatever.

Juliana Sohn:

The fluffy hair. That’s a signature look now.

Catherine Hong:

Your videos are so popular and so everyone knows what you look like. Let’s start with the cookbook. Can you explain to us how it came about that you decided to move back to Atlanta to work on it with your mom. And was that also pandemic-related or would you have gone home anyway?

Eric Kim:

Man, that’s a great question. March 2020 is when, around the time I got my book deal and then New York City went to lockdown. So, I was working on the book for maybe three or four months, a good chunk, a good amount of time. None of those recipes made it into the book because I got to the kimchi chapter and I was like, “I’m going to develop some kimchi recipes with my mom and I have to do that there, because kimchi’s such a temporal thing.” It takes weeks and it’s also such a… It’s an art that I hadn’t really learned yet as a professional. I was supposed to go home for a couple months and it was perfectly timed, because it was my birthday and it was in July.

So, it was supposed to be this big homecoming. And, two months turned into four months and then five months, six months. And then eventually, I was there for nine months because I just kept pushing it back. And also, I found out the writing just felt more right. This cookbook just took on a life of its own because of the pandemic I would say. And, as I was living day to day with my family I realized — that was the book. It was about my family and the day to day. It started from two months and turned into nine months and that was a real blessing in disguise and kind of wild.

Catherine Hong:

I wanted to ask you about the food that you’ve become known for, which is not what we think of as typical traditional Korean food. When you started cooking professionally

… this was before people were really even fully embracing Korean food the way they are now. Right?

Eric Kim:

Yeah.

Catherine Hong:

So, you managed to write this book, not only this Korean cookbook, but kind of one step beyond?

Eric Kim:

It’s a great question and I love the way you phrased that because, all those thoughts were definitely going through my head. I think, I was really lucky though, because I had sort of a playground at Food52. I think, it was just a nice place for me to just try things out for the first time. I hadn’t written that much up until that moment really. I was an academic before and this was a new profession for me. So, it was nice to have a playground where I could get to, just every week, write something, edit something, test things out. And I found that some of my Korean stories and recipes were the most popular among the most popular. And then I found that, even in my regular, non-Korean recipes, they had inflections of the Korean pantry or just the way I eat or think about food. When it came time to write the book, this was a very personal project.

 

I wanted to explore Korean food without boundaries. But at the same time, I really wanted to show people that these definitions of authentic Korean food, authentic American food, they’re very elusive. And especially in the Korean dishes, there’s so much of variance and so many more interesting things happening. And I think there’s this thing in food media, which is very white-led. A lot of white voices. But it’s becoming more and more diverse now. But, a lot of people just defining these Korean dishes for the first time. And, if anyone wanted to innovate, it was like cultural appropriation. I think, what I found while writing the book, it’s a discovery I made, while cooking through the book. I was like, “Oh. This dish, it sounds like a fusion dish.”

 

It sounds really random and maybe culturally appropriative from someone, but a group of people ate this at a specific moment in time and it’s because they didn’t have 꽈리고추 (chili pepper) or whatever, so they use jalapeños. And so, when I think about that and I started treating my family and my community in Atlanta, my neighbors and my cousins and my aunts and uncles, I realized that, “Wow. This is a very specific culinary tradition.” And so, I wanted to capture that and I think I try to do that in my work at the Times as well. But ultimately, I’m just trying to tell the truth and I want people to expand their idea about what the truth is, because that’s how we define cannons in cuisine and culture. And I think, the more we question that cannon that’s often led by a select few, it’s important to diversify and just acknowledge that there are various ways of being and living and various ways to be Korean.

Juliana Sohn:

When I was growing up, I kind of assumed that my Korean identity was just a monolith, that my family was so normal, typical and un-special, that this is what all Koreans were, exactly like my family. And it was only when I started to actually explore and get to know other Korean people. They would correct me because I made these assumptions and they’re like, “What are you talking about? We don’t do that.” And I’m like, “Really? That’s a Sohn thing? That’s not a whole Korean thing?” And it made me realize reading your cookbook that there are certain things that your mom did, like the 매실청 (plum syrup) is a really big thing that it was never part of my mom’s kitchen. I really think it’s so interesting that, because food is so tied into culture and identity. I have half kids and oftentimes food is the only way I can really connect them to my culture, because my Korean language is not very strong.

There’s a line in your book. I wrote it down because I thought it was so great. You said that you’re “giving your mom’s food the vocabulary it never had.” I love that. My parents, I’m first generation as well, our parents who came and their English never got very fluent, they have such great stories. But, they were never able to share them in a way that could resonate with the American public. And I think, it’s interesting that, you, second generation, the 1.5 generation, we’re half and we can navigate those different worlds. And, I think it’s fantastic when people like Michelle Zauner, or you, we can translate the immigrant story in a way that I think, makes it easier for American audiences to really hear.

Eric Kim:

Yeah. Man, I love this conversation and it’s going to make me cry, because I’m such a sap and I love crying, but I think, you’re so spot on. There were so many moments in my life, where that halfness felt like such a… For me it was cultural, not racial or anything. But, it was just such a burden or it felt like such a burden. I would get so resentful that I had to sign my own permission slips. I was like, “What’s the point of having a parent if I’m parenting myself?” I felt like that in certain moments. Just like the logistical things, try having to explain like, “This is a form so that I can play soccer. Can you fill that out?” And they’re like, “I don’t know how.” So, I would have to figure it out. And, I always resented that. I’d be like, “Well, other kids get to have Cheerios for dinner or whatever.” And then, as an adult, I just started to realize that it was an incredible privilege. And this very specific wave of Korean immigrants to America in the 80s, that’s something I wanted to capture. Because I was like, “This is a very specific position we’re in.” This generation, the Michelle Zauners of the world. I think that story… I felt like I wanted to tell that. And what’s really exciting is, this season, this cookbook season is when all of those books are coming out. It’s really exciting. Rick Martinez has one that’s coming out. His is a little different, because he moved to the motherland to find himself and to rediscover his roots and learn the cuisine. That book’s called Mi Cocina. It’s about his time in Mexico. And, Yewande Komolafe is my colleague. She has a book about Nigeria coming out in a few seasons. I think it’s really exciting that those books are coming out and all these people who are saying authenticity is crap, that’s not a real word. It’s not a real thing and we should look at individuals, instead of treating whole swaths of people like an anthropology study or something. That’s not how it is.

Catherine Hong:

I want to know what your mom and dad thought of your cooking when you were a kid? Because, it sounds like you started young, cooking for yourself and watching a lot of Food TV. Did they encourage cooking?

Eric Kim:

Yeah, they definitely did. I’m thinking back on it. I think they were just excited to not have to cook dinner that day or something. It’s so wild that I remember this, because I don’t remember anything I cooked for people. That first meal I cooked was for their anniversary. I think, it was one of the very first times I cooked and it was salmon with fettuccine alfredo, alfredo sauce from the jar. And then it was deep fried onion rings. I was like, “Why did I pick such a weird…”

Catherine Hong:

How old were you?

Eric Kim:

I was 13. It was just so difficult that… Doesn’t that sound hard? It’s a really difficult menu and…

Juliana Sohn:

Yeah. A lot of different steps. A lot of different pans and pots.

Eric Kim:

But I think, ultimately that was a really lovely moment for me to just explore. And I think, my parents were always… They were just amused, I think.

Catherine Hong:

I remember my mom once said offhand to me, “Oh boys…” I have an older brother. “Oh, your brother, in Korea, he wouldn’t even be allowed in the kitchen, because his … thingy would fall off.”

Eric Kim:

Oh my God.

Catherine Hong:

Is this something that you… Is this a Korean saying, your penis will fall off? Boy’s penises will fall off if they go in the kitchen?

Eric Kim:

I have never heard that.

Juliana Sohn:

This is a generational thing too.

Catherine Hong:

Have you heard that?

Eric Kim:

I never heard that.

Catherine Hong:

I was told that. They didn’t believe it. They thought it was funny, but I was horrified.

Eric Kim:

Oh it’s like an idiom. I’ve never heard that, but I’d get that sentiment. I had a cousin who, I’m sure he’s a better person now. When I was that age, I was baking a lot actually. More than cooking meals for myself, I was baking a lot of cookies and cakes and stuff. And he was like, “Are you gay?” At that time I didn’t know that I was gay, but it was just like, “Why are you cooking? You’re a boy.” And, it was just that toxic, Korean, 한남 (hannam) energy, definitely was there, but my dad was never like that. No.

Catherine Hong:

And, what about the fact that you chose to pursue food professionally?

Eric Kim:

You’re asking questions that I’ve never really thought about. I think, I feel, my parents… They were just always amused. I think I said that before. They’re always just watching what I do and they’re like, “Eric knows what he is doing. This is weird, but let’s see what happens.” And I think, it was a big deal when I called them and I was like, “I think I want to drop out of my PhD program. I fucking hate it, sorry, I hate it.” And they were like, “We support you, do whatever you want.” Couple of years after that, the next couple of years, there was a lot of, “So, do you think you’ll go back to school?” Because for parents, a PhD at a certain school, that’s all they understand and they can tell people and they’re like, “Oh yeah. He’s a 박사. He’s a PhD student. He’s going to be a professor.”

Catherine Hong:

They thought you’d be a professor of English?

Eric Kim:

Yeah.

Catherine Hong:

You were at Columbia. Right?

Eric Kim:

It was. Yeah. And, I think what’s funny is, I probably will end up still doing that later in life. But, I realized that, “Wow.” In my youth or whatever, I think there’s so many other things to experience. Not that your life dies when you become a professor, but it’s the same thing. I realized that I was not ready for that. I love teaching and I can’t wait to do that one day. But right now, I like the hustle and I like running around all the time. Anyway, I think I just realized that, as I was doing this other thing, just writing about food, they started to notice the comments section, I think. And they were like, “Wow. You’re making people cry. You’re actually doing something, this is affecting people.” And, I think they started to see that. And then, when I started to show them other things like, “Look, I’m on TV.” And they’re like, “Oh wow.” I think they understand it now.

Catherine Hong:

Your parents are pretty open minded.

Juliana Sohn:

The fact that they’re open to asking you so many questions and that the level of conversation, and I have to say, the level of drinking that you talk about you do with your parents, over a whiskey or the bottles of wine, it just sounds like a different world to me, because that is not the kind of engagement that I am used to. It’s sort of like, Peter Sohn said, “Oh, we talked over, like peeling apples.” It’s really interesting to me to hear that you sit and drink with your parents and that you have conversations, is even more foreign.

Eric Kim:

It was never a thing to drink with our parents until I came out to them and we had so much red wine that night. And then since then, alcohol was sort of like, “Let’s have, 한잔 하자,” it’s like, “Let’s have one shot or one drink.” And, it’s like an opportunity to set the conversation. It was like, “Let’s talk and let’s hang out.” And I think, that’s a really special thing that happened recently. And with the book especially… Yeah. They ask really great questions. But, I think as a reporter, I feel the cookbook was a really lovely moment for me to report and to interview them, as, like my subjects for a year. I would call them when I was not in Atlanta and be like, “Remember this dish? What’s the first time you had it?” It was always the same questions and I just saw what would come out of it and my mom would just be rambling and I would just be typing away.

Catherine Hong:

Eric, I think we have to go back to a story about when you came out to your parents. Can you tell us a little bit… How old were you or how long ago was that?

Eric Kim:

It seems like so much longer ago and I kept my age a secret for a really long time, until I knew that the book would come out, because I have a line at the very end that says how old I am. Just like context.

Catherine Hong:

Yeah. I read that. That’s how I know you are 30! Got that.

Eric Kim:

I was in a time warp writing that. It’s weird moving back home as an adult and being there for a significant amount of time, because you instantly revert to a child status again. But, I think I was 26. I was 26 or something. Yeah. I remember it was after grad school. I think in my life, there was… I was like, “I’m going to come out to them when I graduate high school. I’m going to come out to them when I graduate college.” And then, grad school happened and I was like, “I’m going to graduate. I’m going to come out to them when I graduate this PhD program.” And then I dropped out and then I started working and then I was like, “Oh, I just have to do it, because I keep putting it off.”

And, it’s something you put off, it’s so hard. And I think, it’s something that you just… I think there was something that year, I just felt very sure and confident in myself. And then, I think that’s when I was ready and I’m really grateful that I waited till I was ready, because I think they needed me to hand-hold them. And, that’s something that I really wanted to say in an essay, which I did for Food52 about kimchi fried rice. I wanted to share that because, just all of the coming out stories I had been seeing in media at least, they came from white kids who came out to their very liberal American parents and the parents are like, “Oh, we already knew and we love you anyway.” And, my version was kind of like that, but it was also a whole week of just intense crying and drinking and…

My boyfriend is also the son of immigrants and we describe it as, to your parents, it feels like you’ve died. It’s such a very specific experience, coming out as a gay kid to an immigrant parent. So, I feel like, that’s what I wanted to get across.

Juliana Sohn:

Well, that essay was so powerful and the part that did really hit me hard was, because my parents were super religious, when your parents told you that they stopped going to church. Hearing that and what that implicates, that it shattered their world and the way they saw God and their place in the world. Just how confusing it must have been for them and what’s going to win out? The love you have for your child or your sense of identity and community and how do you talk to your fellow community members about this? What did they do? Did they go back to church or how has the reception been within their peers?

Eric Kim:

I love that question, because it’s actually like one of the most frequent questions in the comment section of the essay, which is, “Did your parents go back to church and then, did you stop smoking?” I am like, “I don’t smoke!” So, they did go back to church. And, what was really cool about this moment was, I got to know them really well. I got to hear their thoughts about theology and religion and I got to hear them make decisions for themselves. And I think, the way she talked about it, the way she found peace was, she was like, “This isn’t a brand new thing that happened. It was always, it just always was. And I just didn’t know.” So that means, I’m not a religious person, but the way she’s phrased, it was like that… I should check that with her.

I don’t know what she thinks now, but she was like, “God didn’t give this to me. It was always here” kind of thing. And I think, when she realized that, she was like, “Hmm, God must be more okay with it than I think.” And I think they have their own sets of moral guidelines. I don’t know about other Korean churches, but its role in Atlanta is as a cultural center. It’s a really beautiful… I’m very grateful that I grew up in that. Sorry, that’s my dog. She interrupts everything.

Catherine Hong:

Bring her on. Hold her up.

Juliana Sohn:

She’s in the cookbook!

Eric Kim:

Oh yeah, she is. She’s in the cookbook. I’ll see.

Juliana Sohn:

We can all do a doggy show and tell. Oh, hello. What’s her name?

Eric Kim:

Her name’s Quentin. She’s named after the main character in The Sound and the Fury. She came from Mississippi.

Juliana Sohn:

Oh yeah. You’re a big Faulkner fan. Aren’t you?

Eric Kim:

I love talking to them about religion because, it’s not just talking about religion, it’s talking about community. I think for them, the Catholic church is just such a big safety net for them. And I think, that’s really beautiful that took me later to growing up to go back and realize how positive that is actually for people like my parents. Any Korean restaurant, any Korean chicken wing place, those places in Atlanta, the churches, they’re all super important for these immigrants to be able to not be alone. And I think that’s really beautiful. And that’s something I realized later. And that’s why, the next book, my joke title for it, which will probably become the real title, is, My Gay Southern Catholic Korean Memoir. Yeah. I definitely intend to write about religion. Church was a big part of my life. It’s very interesting part of my life. I was like an altar boy.

Catherine Hong:

Do you speak Korean to your parents?

Eric Kim:

I do. I’d say I’m fluent conversationally. There’s vocabulary of words I don’t know as an American person. But, yeah. I speak fluent Korean with them, sometimes with my dad, ebbs and flows in and out of like English.

Catherine Hong:

Juliana and I both read that Food52 essay about coming out. It was so funny how you practiced saying, “I’m gay, 나는 게이야.” And then I thought, is there a word? Is there a Korean word for being gay or is it “gaya?”

Eric Kim:

Oh my God. No. I think gay is colloquial and there is a word, I think it starts with… I wouldn’t even be able to. I think there’s an example word. It’s kind of like, there’s a word for penis, like colloquially versus the scientific version or whatever.

Juliana Sohn:

Yeah.

Eric Kim:

But, that’s a good question. I think that was one of the first times I wrote Korean into my piece. Not only is it harder for me to come out to my parents than it is for someone else, it’s also harder to say. It’s so annoying. It’s like … as if it’s already hard, it’s like, “I’m gay.” That’s so short. “나는 게이야” It’s like…

Catherine Hong:

What I love is that, you and your mom are partners in this book. You would squabble over how to cook something. She taught you things and you have this culinary background so you could teach her a few things. I’m also struck by the fact that you referred to her as Jean. I know you don’t call her that probably to her face. But when you’re referring to her to your friends, you’ll say, “Jean did this or Jean does that?”

Eric Kim:

Yeah. It’s unusual. I think people ask that a lot. And my answer is usually just… It’s actually just pretty editorial, I would say. It’s like, once I started translating her, I was like, “Oh, she’s like her own character. She’s like a figure.” And, I didn’t want her to be conflated into this. I always call it just the stereotypical immigrant, Asian mom. A small lady, who’s very quiet and passive and cuts you fruit and slips away into the kitchen. I didn’t want that image of her because that’s not who she is. And from the translating to making sure to just call her Jean, I wanted to show the version of her that’s really real, because she’s very fiery and she’s very feisty. There were so many moments in the book where she would be like, “That’s not going to work!” And it was just like a competition to show her, prove her wrong and I would give her a bite of it and she’d be like… Anyway. So, we became partners in that way. And I think it produced really interesting recipes because of it.

Juliana Sohn:

When I was reading your book, there were a couple of quotes I wrote down because, they really resonated with me. I’ve been working on a lot of documenting the older generation, hearing their stories and that’s the Korean American Story mission as well. You had an Instagram post recently where you implored people to talk to your parents, write down their recipes and you have a line that says, “Growing up is when you start coming back home.” And, as the parent of a child who just left for college this past year, they’re out there trying to get away as much as possible to cut those ties and strings and figure out their identity, who they are without the parental influence. And it seems like, you must have a certain kind of confidence in who you are now, that you’re able to spend nine months at home and that you can write so affectionately about your family. Because, I can’t wait for that to happen. Can you tell me about your journey and when you felt that you were able to go back home?

Eric Kim:

Sure. Confidence is a really flattering word. Thank you. Yeah. That feeling of going back home as an adult and then not just visiting for the holidays, that’s very different. I realized after 10 years of doing that, I was like, “Whoa, this is different. Living together.” Because what happens is, those dynamics come back, the old ones. And, you’re just like a kid again. This is a really obscure story, but I think it’s a good one. Okay. So, my mom, the one thing that she hates about me when I come home is that I take the dog out and I come back home and I leave the door unlocked or something. It’s her one pet peeve. It’s for good reason. She’s like, “You have to lock the door. What if someone comes in and kills us all?”

And so last night I’m at my boyfriend’s place now and we’re both asleep and at 1:00 AM I wake up and I’m like, “I didn’t lock the front door, I think.” So I walked downstairs and I locked it. And I was like, the reason I had that impulse was because, I don’t have a parent above me. It’s like, when you are the most responsible one in a household suddenly, it just becomes different. And I’m convinced that I sleep better under my parents’ house. I talk to friends about this. You get a deeper sleep, because you’re suddenly not the most responsible anymore in the house. So, you get to be a kid again. And I think that’s psychologically really important. And I think it’s something that goes away when your parents die. And I think, so those lessons are really profound and people have spent centuries trying to define it.

Juliana Sohn:

I’m just silent because, I’m just going through a lot of emotions and listening to you speak. I know what you mean.

Eric Kim:

Yeah. Just like parent and kid stuff. That’s the kind of thing that will get me crying easily. It’s just… Ugh.

Juliana Sohn:

Yeah. Once you spend a few days living with your parents or living with people, you learn things about them that you don’t get in. Even if you talk to them every day, the things that they won’t tell you or don’t think to tell you, you all of a sudden start understanding and absorbing about them.

Eric Kim:

It’s so important. I’m learning things about my partner, just by being in the same space. And it’s like, “How did I not know this?” It’s like, “Why would…” You don’t talk about the ordinary? And I think, it’s when you do inhabit the ordinary and the everyday, that’s when you can arrive at some really interesting truths and some fun context. I like to write about the ordinary in my columns because, at first it seems like a dumb question. On Twitter, I’m always asking a question, I’m revealing my ways. But, I always ask a very simple question just to… I have an itch or I have a hunch about something and I just ask it and it becomes this spiral thread. I’m like, “Okay, that was right.” And I write about it.

So I think, it’s always something dumb, like eggs and rice. It’s not dumb, but it’s like, “eggs and rice are the best.” And it’s like some picture of food porn, a beauty shot of a fried egg with a glistening that caused me to write about 계란 밥(egg rice). And it was funny about that story was, a lot of different Asians came together and were like, “That’s not Korean, that’s ours!” And then, it was just started like a conversation. Every culture has eggs and rice. That’s why it’s really interesting. Yeah.

Juliana Sohn:

So, I don’t know if this is one of your threads. This is a few years ago, but it pops up frequently on Twitter. I love when Asians start debating. Do you measure the amount of rice to water using math and measuring cups? Or do you just knuckle it?

Eric Kim:

Asian Twitter’s the best. I love it. And, we talk about how Asian American, as if word isn’t expansive enough to define everything that it contains. But, when it’s just flattened on Twitter to Asian things, it just feels so good. It’s like, you just feel a sense of community and really charged. The rice thing is funny. I feel like — or let me know what you guys do — but I think Koreans do this. They do this knuckle thing and then other Asians do the finger. I just measure it.

Catherine Hong:

I know, I saw you actually do a one to one ratio.

Juliana Sohn:

You have two recipes for rice in your cookbook.

Eric Kim:

Yeah. It started off as a joke. It was just, my mom’s method is very loosey goosey. And to be frank, her rice is very variable. It’s different every time and sometimes it’s too dry.

Catherine Hong:

Does she do the hand?

Eric Kim:

Yeah. She barely does the hand. She just looks at it. And then, it’s not like it comes out great every time. And, I think that’s the funny part. It’s a very basic thing, but she’s actually not very good at making rice.

Juliana Sohn:

Oh, you heard it here!

Eric Kim:

It’s funny because, that’s not like… I don’t know. No one has to be good at it. It’s a ratio. So, I just use this cup measure. I have five of them in my house, because it’s like, scoop a cup of rice, scoop a cup of water and that’s it. Yeah. That’s what I think about that.

Catherine Hong:

I know that you love Spam, as many Koreans do. And then I saw that on Instagram you mentioned that you’re participating in a play called Specially Processed and it’s about Spam. I couldn’t understand how this play is using different chefs. Can you explain what this play is?

Eric Kim:

It’s this play that’s been in the works for quite a few years. I reported a story about Spam for my last Food52 column, maybe two or three years ago. And for that one I interviewed this playwright and she was working on this show called Specially Processed American Me. The play is kind of surrealist. It follows the story of the playwright as a kid. I think it’s cool to see your childhood, your experience in art. And, whether that part is like a picture of gamja salad in the New York Times or whatever, I think that moves people. It moves you because, you spend your whole life not being seen, not being represented and having this other idea about everything from the right food to the right body. And so I think, for kids who are growing up and get to see their thing, finally it’s depicted with as much care as something that play is. So, it’s just like a marketing campaign for the play. A few chefs donated some recipes and it’s sort of , yeah, just to get the word out. What do you guys think about Spam?

Catherine Hong:

I hadn’t eaten it for years, but I remember loving it as a kid. Then I didn’t eat it for many years. I pretended I thought it was gross and I would never buy it. But then, more recently, I’ve been buying it again and I’m happy to report that my daughter thinks it’s delicious. HJ made some Spam fried rice that he shared with me once and it was delicious. So I’m on board. I’m going to make your maple glazed Spam.

Eric Kim:

Yeah, that one’s fine.

Juliana Sohn:

Yeah, that sounds great. That sounds like a great recipe. I have not bought or eaten Spam in ages, but after I saw your cookbook, I did go out and buy a can of Spam and I bought the low sodium Spam. And then, when I got home, I realized a low sodium Spam actually has chicken in it, which I thought was a little weird, but I did make some things, I think the kimbap one, and I made some kimchi jjigae. I sliced some of it in there. I don’t mind the taste of it, but I think the texture is a little bit weird for me. My son was like, “I just don’t like chewing it.” But, I think…

Catherine Hong:

I think it’s good when you fry it. When it’s crisped, crispy…

Juliana Sohn:

I just like that maple glazed one and adding a little bit of sweetness to offset the extreme saltiness. I think that would probably be the way to go.

Eric Kim:

Yeah. The texture’s a good point. I have an incredible fondness for the soft kind. That’s just braised and kimchi juice, because it kind of gains the flavor of it and becomes less salty. So, I kind of like that. But, yeah. Spam’s a whole thing. I think, the one thing that I realized with it is that, just how expansive it is in terms of people’s relationship to it. It’s not just Koreans, a lot of Asians and I think that’s really beautiful. It’s kind of like the egg rice. When you recognize that your thing… That’s another part about the book. I talked about how it’s a personal experience that I’m depicting, but a lot of the conversations I had with my Korean friends while writing the book were about, “Oh, whoa. You did that too all the way in LA, in the late 80s, 90s?” I think that’s fascinating thinking about…This is another weird sociological theory I have. If two people are in very different places in the United States for instance. Atlanta and LA, but do the same thing, create the same innovation or whatever, whatever that may be, that must say something about that pattern. And I think that’s weird and cool.

Juliana Sohn:

There’s something in the cultural zeitgeist of the times maybe and the things that are available.

Eric Kim:

Yeah. Cultural zeitgeist at the times and then you’re just also examining… I don’t know. These things that you took for granted and I think that’s another thing about my writing. I try to pinpoint things that we take for granted, because those are the things that you’re not going to say out loud. But when you say them out loud, you’re like, “That’s weird or that’s cool. That’s very strange. And let’s look into that.” Lemon pepper, for instance. My last column was about lemon pepper chicken wings in Atlanta. And, I just realized that there’s this really huge connection between the strip clubs and these Korean fried chicken places. I didn’t say all of my weird theories.

Juliana Sohn:

Where do you write all your weird theories? Is it in your newsletter? Where can people get some of that or do we have to wait for your next book? The memoir?

Eric Kim:

I think, once we’re going out again, I think it’s over a drink. No. I definitely have a collection of essays that are coming out, where I plan to and hope to really expand some of these ideas, but with reporting.

Catherine Hong:

But, just share with us your stripper theory.

Eric Kim:

So, okay. Growing up in Atlanta, the chicken wings were always dry, but not in a bad way. Dry rubbed and really hot and peppery and spicy. And there was also, lemon pepper was always an option at these Korean chicken wing places. And, this is not 닭강정, it’s not chicken, it’s not like Korean fried chicken. It’s hot wings. They’re like Tabasco-y and peppery and my cousins and I have this theory that the wing culture that came out of strip clubs, that’s where some of these men would go and they… This is totally a theory. I have to do more reporting to even prove it, that’s why this is off the record. But, I just wonder where those connections are between the Korean men who… And they were men the first few big, hot wing stores, which my dad was there when it happened, you know, that’s his friend.

And I’m just like, “Where are those connections happening?” If I just did some reporting, I could find it I think. But, I’m fascinated by… This thing, I ate my whole life, this chicken wing. Whether it was lemon pepper or this peppery thing, it doesn’t exist anywhere else. And so, I think when I tell that to my Atlanta friends, they’re like, “Really? Are you sure?” And I’m like, “Yep.” It’s a really random thing that we just grew up with, because of our very specific Korean Americanness in Atlanta. And, my cousin has a theory that, it’s a hodgepodge of Mexican immigrant cooking and Korean immigrant cooking, because they were in the kitchens together in these earlier bars and restaurants in Atlanta. Buford highway has all these hot wing places and strip clubs.

And the main hot wing I ate growing up was at this place called, “Don’t Get Hooked” and in that same parking lot was a strip club called, “Girls, Girls, Girls.” They’re very close to each other through history. And so, I don’t know if anyone can really prove those touchstones, but I think if I were assigned a story, I could probably figure that out.

Catherine Hong:

I’ve never been to Atlanta and I’m always interested in the experience of growing up Korean in the South. Juliana and I both grew up in the Tri-State area. And I’m interested, now that you’ve been in New York all these years, is there anything that struck you? Aside from the chicken wings, a fundamental thing or a quirky interesting thing that’s different about being Korean American in the South and being Korean American New Yorkers?

Eric Kim:

I’m sure I would be able to. If I thought more about it, I could find something more specific. But actually, the one realization I had while writing the book was, “Whoa, I grew up way more Korean than I thought.” And so, that was cool. Coming to New York, NYU with my guitar case and I was not even out of the closet yet. I was watching all these other Koreans live their lives and have all these Korean friends. And I was like, “Wow. That must be so interesting.” I think about LA people a lot. It’s like, people who grew up in LA, where you’re not really a minority, there’s a lot of Koreans around you and UCLA was 30% Asian, but so was my high school. High school was 30% Asian.

So, I look back after living in New York and being in rooms, not with Korean people, that, I was really in a very, almost like utopian Korean place. It was a very Korean experience and the good and the bad. But, I just think … I wish I could go back and absorb it more, because we were all going through something really specific. Yeah. I think, it took later in life and I get DMs from people from back home, who I haven’t talked to in years and they’re like, “Aren’t you from this church? I remember you.” And, this is what’s been up with me and it’s just really cool to see the different ways people have taken this gift that we were given, which is being Korean in America. I think, it’s really wonderful gift. And, it’s become easier to just acknowledge that there are more experiences than that. Like, glossy magazine cover of the perfect looking mashed potatoes or whatever. I think the internet has allowed people to share their experiences. And what’s cool is, other people see that and they’re like, “Oh, that was me too.” And then, millions of people say that. Those are the stories that do the best for me, where I have tapped into a human truism that I’ve always had a theory about. And then, I get to prove through sources and it’s very rarely with chefs actually. Sometimes I interview chefs for technical pieces but, I just want to know about ordinary people and what they eat.

Catherine Hong:

Well, my question is, what did you have for dinner last night? What did you have for breakfast? And what are you going to eat today?

Eric Kim:

I love questions like these. I feel like I often don’t eat before things like this so I never have a good answer, I just had coffee this morning. But last night, I had a really interesting dinner that I’m excited to tell you about. I made us stew. My boyfriend really likes seafood and I wanted to… He was coming home from a trip and I wanted to have this thing ready. And, I had this idea in mind, a Thai red curry with salmon and shrimp and various kinds of potatoes. But, it turned into, I didn’t want to pay $4 for a new jar of a curry paste. So, I added tomato paste and then it became this really interesting, weird, but delicious, but weird. I kept saying it was weird. It tasted like marinara sauce and Thai and seafood curry and a Japanese curry. It tasted like all of those in one. And then, we had that with rice the first night. And so last night, we had it with noodles with angel hair. And I just was reminded of my mom’s spaghetti, because it’s kind of sweet. And, I just think it’s funny that I was trying to cook this thing that turned into three other things and it doesn’t know what it wants to be. It’s definitely not like one of those dishes that I’m going to be, “Oh, I want to pitch that now.” It’s, I just thought it was weird, because it was so many things at once.