The Korean Medicine Episode
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While Korean immigrants are notorious for pushing their kids to become doctors, it’s worth remembering that Koreans have cultivated their own age-old approach to wellness for over 5,000 years. Hanbang – aka traditional Korean medicine – encompasses acupuncture, herbs and cupping and has lately attracted a surge of interest among both Korean Americans and Westerners. Continuing our special series on cultural topics, our hosts sit down with two respected practitioners, Dr. Erin Lee and Dr. Robert Lee, to gain an understanding of this often misunderstood field. Juliana (a Korean medicine adherent) and Catherine (a semi-skeptic) get a chance to ask their burning questions, including: How does Korean medicine differ from Chinese medicine? Is there clinical proof of the effectiveness of herbal remedies? How exactly does acupuncture work — and is it the same thing as “dry needling?” Why do Koreans fear sleeping with fans? What is cupping? How can patients find a good acupuncturist? And what’s the deal with the deer antlers anyway?
Dr Erin Lee on Instagram @workinprogressacu
Website: workinprogressacu.com
Dr Robert Lee at wellintegrativecare.com
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Juliana Sohn:
Hi, and welcome to K-Pod, the podcast about Korean Americans in arts and culture from Korean American story. I’m Juliana Sohn, so a photographer.
Catherine Hong:
And I’m Catherine Hong, a writer and editor.
Juliana Sohn:
As listeners may know, for this season of K-Pod, Catherine and I are doing a special series where we’re discussing cultural topics with the help of experts. Today’s episode is about hanbang or traditional Korean medicine. We’ll be talking about everything from acupuncture to herbs to cupping with our two experts, Dr. Erin Lee, who practices in Manhattan, and Dr. Robert Lee, who practices in Little Neck and Syosset, New York, and whose home we are recording from today.
Catherine Hong:
Erin Lee is the doctor of acupuncture and Chinese medicine and a licensed acupuncturist at Work in Progress Acupuncture Studio where she’s the founding clinic director. Dr. Lee specializes in acupuncture for the treatment of musculoskeletal pain and dysfunction. She also treats GI disorders, mood disorders, sleep issues, migraines, and allergies, using a combination of healing modalities including cupping, gua sha, and herbal medicine. Born and raised in New Jersey. Dr. Lee is a graduate of Pacific College of Oriental Medicine and has worked at Mount Sinai Beth Israel’s Oncology Center and NYU Lutheran’s Neurological and Orthopedic Rehab Center among other places.
Robert Lee is the founder of Robert Lee Integrative Chiropractic and Acupuncture where he specializes in sports medicine. Dr. Lee was born in Seoul, moved to the States at age 12, and after college at Stony Brook University, worked for eight years as a respiratory therapist at Long Island Jewish Medical Center before he decided to commit himself to studying Eastern medicine. He obtained a master’s degree in oriental medicine at New York College of Health Professions, and later a doctorate in chiropractic at the University of Bridgeport. Thank you both for coming to K-Pod.
Robert Lee:
Thank you for-
Erin Lee:
Thank you for having us.
Robert Lee:
Yes.
Juliana Sohn:
How did you both get involved in your work? Why Asian medicine versus Western medicine? And were you ever interested in medical school?
Erin Lee:
For me, I was first introduced to it. My father, when I was maybe in high school, college, my father learned from a Korean acupuncturist. I remember seeing drawings from his notes and with the little dots all over it and just being fascinated by it. But fast-forward, more than a decade later, I was always searching for what my calling is in life and here I am. I never really had an interest in Western medicine before that. For some reason I was just drawn to Eastern medicine. I don’t know. I just find it philosophically beautiful. It’s more like an art form to me.
Juliana Sohn:
And how about you?
Robert Lee:
So my case is a little bit different. I was born and raised to be a doctor just like all other Korean Americans. So as I’m studying the medicine, the Western medicine, getting ready to go into the medical school, I decide to why not just let me just get a taste of the Western medicine by becoming a respiratory therapist first. And as I was working in the NICU and the PICU, it was harsh in my end and I always thought of why am I being here? [foreign language] meaning you just realize what is really going on here. Am I really suffered this kind of role working in the hospitals? And then I always have connection to the Eastern medicine where I always get the help from whenever I have issue with my body. So it’s like-
Juliana Sohn:
So your family, you had a history of using-
Robert Lee:
Yes, right.
Juliana Sohn:
… Eastern medicine just like Erin’s family did?
Robert Lee:
So as I was working and I was like, “You know what mom? I’m just going to turn around and become [foreign language] instead of a [foreign language]. And they’re like, “What?” Just like what Erin said, the calling, there was a calling just one day. It’s like, “All right, Robert, you’re going to be acupuncturist.” And like, “Okay.”
Catherine Hong:
Maybe we should talk about terminology because I don’t think I’d ever heard the term hanbang, which I understand is the umbrella term for Korean medicine. I’ve heard of hanyak, which I guess is the medicine itself, but can you just explain the terms?
Robert Lee:
So basically, hanyak is just like the yak, meaning medicine is there. So when they’re referring to the herbal medicine, we call it hanyak. hanbang is like you said, umbrella term, meaning the East Asian medicine and as in whole, they call it hanbang or they call it hanbang chiryo, the Eastern medicine treatments such as acupuncture, the cuppings, the moxibustion.
Catherine Hong:
Sorry, what’s the last one?
Robert Lee:
Moxibustion.
Catherine Hong:
What is that?
Robert Lee:
It’s an herb that you burn on your body.
Erin Lee:
And Koreans now is a [foreign language].
Robert Lee:
[foreign language].
Erin Lee:
They put it in [foreign language] and all that too. Mugwort.
Catherine Hong:
Do you know about that?
Juliana Sohn:
I only know about that because Dr. Erin sprays mugwort on me.
Robert Lee:
Spray.
Juliana Sohn:
Yeah.
Catherine Hong:
Right. We should mention that Juliana is a patient of Dr. Lee. Right.
Juliana Sohn:
Yes. Dr. Erin Lee.
Catherine Hong:
Dr. Erin Lee, right. Juliana is a patient of Dr. Erin Lee. That’s how we found Erin. Say again the name of this-
Erin Lee:
Moxibustion.
Robert Lee:
Moxibustion.
Catherine Hong:
Moxibustion.
Robert Lee:
They call it in the Western world. Right? Moxibustion.
Erin Lee:
Moxa for short.
Robert Lee:
So all the modalities of the Korean medicine, they call it hanbang. Yes,
Catherine Hong:
In researching, to speak with you guys, when I googled hanbang, every single citation in Google was about Korean beauty. And I think that people Googling this come with a misunderstanding just because of all the marketing. It’s all about beauty-
Erin Lee:
Everything’s about [inaudible].
Catherine Hong:
And the answer is what is hanbang? It’s Korean dermatology. It’s the beauty, beauty, beauty, beauty.
Robert Lee:
Nowadays, Korea is actually working really hard to promote who they are because such a small country. So I think they’re now calling K-Pop, K-Drama. So even the hanbang, they call it K-medicine and big portion of the Korean traditional medicine is the-
Erin Lee:
Facial.
Robert Lee:
… facial rejuvenation. So they use a lot of herbs into the creams and other products.
Catherine Hong:
So can you explain a little bit, I know this is a whole semester’s worth of Korean medical school, but the origin of hanbang?
Robert Lee:
So origin of the East Asian medicine, that’s why they actually changed the name instead of start calling the TCM tradition Chinese medicine. But however, it started in China obviously, but even the old text, they always refer, acupuncture came from the east and I don’t know you guys know the [foreign language], the tombstone, they have drawings. And in Korea, the peninsula, they found a lot of stone needles and other stuff that thought that it could… Actually, in Korea they’re claiming that their acupuncture came from Korea. That’s just a claim.
The traditional medicine is definitely shared with East Asian countries, China, Japan, Korea, even to the India. And then Joseon Dynasty, actually that’s the one, the Korean medicine got more defense, I guess, because of the work that the royal physician named Heo Jun who came out in lot of a K-Drama. So he’s the one who wrote the encyclopedia of the Korean medicine and called Dongui Bogam. And ever since then the Korean medicine got evolved in such their own way of medicine because of the resource is different than what Chinese medicine, and the herb is different than what they have in Korean Peninsula have.
Catherine Hong:
So just to clarify, so there is a book, it’s actually a series of books now, right-
Robert Lee:
Yes. Mm-hmm.
Catherine Hong:
… called Dongui Bogam and that is the bible of Korean medicine. It’s still taught today.
Robert Lee:
Yes.
Catherine Hong:
Has it been updated? Is it something that’s continuously updated or is this the original text just translated?
Robert Lee:
Original text is translated and in hanbang, in Eastern medicine, one of the professors actually his quote, “[foreign language].” Western medicine is more of like, they’re keep on advancing it. Even the research, they’re constantly changing their findings. But the Eastern medicine is more of finding the old way and because of the medicine is based off the theory and the philosophy of the universe.
Erin Lee:
Even the formulas that are used today, they’re time tested for thousands of years that have been around for that long. So as opposed to constantly evolving Western medications that are coming out and for every new disease. And so, I think in Eastern medicine they value I guess the tradition, the…
Catherine Hong:
That’s so interesting. That was a big question I had is has it changed? So there isn’t this idea of advances.
Robert Lee:
There are advancement of Korean medicine in terms of using different tools, not just the acupuncture needles, but now there’s nano acupunctures, acupuncture creams are out there. Creams are advancing. But I think the whole thought of formulating the acupuncture treatment points are still traditional.
Juliana Sohn:
So I have a question. Everybody’s seen the posters or the 3D model of a human and it’s got all these dots, which are those the meridian points. And for me, who did not know anything about acupuncture, I equated those dots with every human. Everybody’s different, but we have those points and it’s the job of the acupuncturist to figure out where those points are on everybody’s body and you need to hit that meridian point with your needle in order for healing to happen. And that’s what I thought acupuncture was. But when I started getting treatment, Dr. Erin explained to me how acupuncture works, what the east dim does, what cupping is and why gua sha works. And I wondered if you two could explain actually what’s going on when and how you decide where to put the needles and the actual biology and science behind it.
Robert Lee:
Okay. Let me ask you a question. You know why we use metal needles? Because it’s a conductor. Our body have this thing called electrical field. So even if Erin is closing eyes and someone’s coming nearby her, she will feel that someone is approaching her because we do have electrical field around us.
Erin Lee:
So you can feel that someone is behind you, right?
Juliana Sohn:
That’s not a heat thing. That’s an electrical field thing.
Robert Lee:
It’s electrical field.
Juliana Sohn:
Interesting. Okay.
Robert Lee:
Our nerve is electricity. Wherever there is an area that is the resistance building up, we call it trigger points or we call it acid points, we call it… You can call it whatever. But that point we put a needle in and the electrical current has to flow nice and smoothly but there’s resistance and because of needle is a very good conductor, you put it in there and it will lower the resistance.
Erin Lee:
I think of it as the same way. Acupuncturists are basically electricians and plumbers for the human body. You’re looking for where there’s blockages where things are stuck, things are not moving properly, and that needle removes those blockages and gets things flowing. So that gets rid of inflammation that may have built a pain. But what I always explain to my patients is that the needle, when it’s inserted into your body, it’s causing a microtrauma. So just like a paper cut, your body’s going to go check it out, send white blood cells there, anti-inflammatory and it’s going to heal it. So it’s basically stimulating your body’s own healing mechanisms.
Robert Lee:
So it’s a body reflex. Body will recognize the invasion and then body react to it.
Erin Lee:
Like it’s being attacked basically.
Juliana Sohn:
And then cupping?
Robert Lee:
Well, cupping is basically you generate the space in between the fascia and the skin and again, blasters to the area where they think, “Oh, wait a minute, there is a space. What’s going on over there? We need to fill that space.” So you have that red marks. So because of you improve the circulation or blood into the area that you have this effect of healing because of the blood, you’re drawing the blood into the area.
Juliana Sohn:
So I’m not shy about walking around with a strappy top with my cupping marks and some people get freaked out because they think it looks like bruising. Can you talk about, is it bruising? What is it?
Robert Lee:
A little bit different than bruising? Again, it’s a microtrauma to the… So it is a bruising, but it is not-
Erin Lee:
It’s different from a bruise because the vessels are not being broken though. That’s the blood being brought up to the surface.
Juliana Sohn:
Oh, that’s why you don’t get the super yellow discoloration.
Robert Lee:
Right.
Erin Lee:
So the marks and how dark it is are diagnostic. Usually if it’s really dark, usually that person has pain there. It indicates poorer circulation. As you keep doing cupping, each time should be less and less in terms of the severity of the marks. And the goal is to have no marks at all. And that’s healthy tissue, healthy circulation.
Juliana Sohn:
When Korean started immigrating to different countries, everything evolves when you’re diaspora. Do you think there has been an evolution in hanbang in the States because of immigration?
Erin Lee:
In the United States, in all major Eastern medicine schools, they’re teaching traditional Chinese medicine. That’s where the original text came from 5,000 years ago or the original texts. And then you can specialize and go off into Korean. Japanese has their own style too.
Juliana Sohn:
I’m wondering because I know so many of these stories are like, “Oh, there’s a [foreign language] who’s 80 and he practices out of his home, and I’m sure he’s not licensed or maybe he learned it, but maybe he didn’t go to a study in a proper college or university, but they all practice it. So I guess that’s what I’m learning about.
Robert Lee:
I think you’re more the medical system got evolved, right? The immigrants when they first came here, I’m pretty sure they don’t have the right access to the Western medicine. So maybe to me, the first immigrants, they’re more hang on to their folk medicine. So they’re actually practice the folk medicine. And I’m pretty sure there’s in such as San Francisco, there’s ton of Chinese medicine clinics out there. I think what you’re referring to is have the Eastern medicine system got evolved. Yes. Because the licensure. Here at the States, they recognize the Eastern medicine more and more. We are not quite there yet to become a mainstream of medicine, but more American people recognize acupuncture.
Erin Lee:
It’s integrative medicine which has become more and more embraced. And I think it’s more accepted here now Western culture than it is with Korean Americans or Asian culture.
Catherine Hong:
Yeah. For instance, I never knew what cupping was until I saw [inaudible] and Angelina Jolie. I had no idea what that was.
Erin Lee:
Michael Phelps made a famous cupping.
Catherine Hong:
I’m learning about trendy-
Juliana Sohn:
Western.
Catherine Hong:
… Western celebrities. I wanted to read, we put a call-out for questions from listeners and we got two that are interesting snapshot of the perceptions. So one is from a listener named Tina Kim. “Hi, I’m a Korean American. My question is why are so many Korean Americans so negative about traditional medicine? When you get into the nitty-gritty, our medicine is not only beautiful, everyday modern science proves our traditional theories. What can we do to help promote our traditional medicine to be seen in a more positive light by our fellow Korean American peers?” Then we have another question from Sean Lee saying, “Why does Korea still seem to hold onto the belief that traditional Korean medicine is just as valid as modern medicine? Is there actually any sort of scientific proof regarding this?” So there you have it. One person saying Korean medicine is beautiful and it needs to be more respected. And the other Korean American is saying, “What the hell? Why are we still doing this?”
Juliana Sohn:
And I think those two questions back to back are so emblematic of the attitudes of a lot of Korean Americans. It’s so split and polarizing.
Erin Lee:
It’s interesting to note that historically though during the Cultural Revolution in China, during that time banned Chinese medicine, Eastern medicine, a lot of the practitioners, they were prosecuted. A lot of the good practitioners came here and are in the States now. They burned thousands of years with medical techs, but I think they did that because they wanted to see more advanced and embrace Western medicine.
Robert Lee:
I think the first question is they have that perception because of the Eastern medicine still recognized as a folk medicine. So I think that ties into that both questions because it’s a great, but everybody practice without license, but matter of fact is not even here in the States or when in Korea is definitely is one of the top achievement become a [foreign language] they really well off in Korea. Even here, we’ve been practicing with the license, with a proper training, proper education. So this is actual field of profession.
Erin Lee:
Also, more and more it is becoming more accepted in Western or in the US but it’s also legitimate in that insurance companies are more and more covering it, which they don’t cover experimental procedures. They cover acupuncture because it’s scientifically proven in clinical trial.
Robert Lee:
And there are a ton of research paper out there.
Catherine Hong:
Right. That was part of the second person’s question is what is the evidence? And I know I’ve heard about clinical trials in acupuncture, I don’t know much about herbs and I do wonder about are there large scale clinical trials are there,
Robert Lee:
Believe it or not, all the old text is a collection of the case studies. All the text that we learned from is actually the collection of the research papers.
Catherine Hong:
But we have modern tests, yes, doing that now, right?
Robert Lee:
In the institution, yes.
Catherine Hong:
Are they doing that in Korea and here too?
Robert Lee:
Yeah, absolutely.
Juliana Sohn:
I think you can maybe tell from Catherine’s line of questioning and my line of questioning that I’m much more of a believer in integrative medicine and I’m actually a patient who’s being treated. And Catherine as the daughter of a Western doctor is much more skeptical. And I think it’s interesting that some of Catherine’s questions, it’s forcing a Western standardization measuring tool on Eastern practices and that’s the only legitimizing standard that they know. Even with a lot of our other questions, how is it legit? What’s the difference between superstition and science? And there are a lot of things that I believe in, but then there are a lot of things that I still question as well. I had a conversation with Dr. Erin in the car and I’m going to read one of these questions because I have to say I thought that’s even maybe hard for me to really get on board with.
Speaker 5:
Hi, my name is Kyongi Kim and I’m calling in from Michigan. My dad is a practicing herbalist and acupuncturist for 35 plus years. And I honestly, 100% believe in hanyak and acupuncture because of how it has worked in my life. A question that I have, which is a very silly one, is what is your take on some of superstitions around Korean health things? Like my mom would always say, “Don’t leave the fan on when you’re sleeping because essentially you’re going to die.” And although I know this is completely not true, I do not leave the fan on when I go to bed. And then another thing my parents would do is when I would have indigestion, she would poke my thumb with the needle and gather all this blood from my shoulder down to my thumb and essentially get bad blood out. I felt like it worked, but I don’t know if that’s just me being superstitious and I’m wondering if you know anything about some of these Korean superstitious health things? Thank you.
Robert Lee:
I think it’s a language. You guys had a previous podcast, you guys did a linguistic, I think the Korean medicine to the Korean younger generation, and I think it’s a language. [foreign language] when I’m dealing with the non-Korean patients, I have to actually answer these type of questions in a medical way.
Catherine Hong:
You don’t say bad blood, don’t use that term, right? Because people think leeches, they think this is illegal.
Robert Lee:
I think it’s the language issue.
Erin Lee:
I think also it’s a little bit of ignorance because like you said, it wasn’t widespread with Korean, say poorer people in Korea, even before Dongui Bogam came out. And people don’t know the true reason behind why they do things they’re just told, this is something you do at this time. So I think that’s why it gets passed on as folk medicine or superstition. But there’s a reasoning behind all of that.
Robert Lee:
That’s a superstition.
Erin Lee:
Not found out. But I was explaining to her in the car about how you don’t want to sleep with wind blowing on you.
Robert Lee:
Right. We call it evil chi, the wind, you always have to watch out for the cold. The wind is blowing at your body because the body will respond to the different temperature, different gradients, temperature, and then your body react to it. They just make it a little exaggerated so that the people don’t practice like sleeping with the fans on. But I don’t think you’d actually die from it.
Juliana Sohn:
Okay. So I was telling Dr. Erin on our drive out here that I got my mom one of those headphone things that is a neck fan to help her so she doesn’t overheat when she’s doing her daily walks. And Dr. Erin said something that I thought was like, “Huh, that doesn’t sound based in science to me.” So can you please share that?
Erin Lee:
Well, I was telling her that I don’t think it’s a good idea to have a fan on your neck blowing wind directly at your all the channels on your face. Because Eastern medicine, the reason why it may seem like folky or superstitious to people is because it’s based from observations thousands of years ago, based on nature, based on five elements, wind, fire, earth, metal, things like that. It’s based on observation on what those cause in the body. So with wind, things like wind hitting the body, you’ll see clinically things like bell’s palsy or stroke or headache or dizziness.
Robert Lee:
Those language or philosophy itself sounds like non medicine. But [foreign language] when we are explaining that our body, Western medicine talk about in the cellular level, the Eastern medicine talk about the universe, how the universe is made, how the person is born and died, how the season pass. So Eastern medicine adopt the phenomenon of the universe and apply to the health, the human body. So it may sound like, “Oh, that’s not a medicine.”
Catherine Hong:
It seems more philosophy based.
Robert Lee:
Oh, it is very clear. Yes.
Catherine Hong:
When you say [inaudible]. That’s right,
Erin Lee:
The medicine is based in philosophy, but it yeah, clinically brought to the individual. But it’s interesting because the Eastern medicine, it does have more of a macro view, whereas Western medicine I think has more of a micro view and that’s why there’s so many different specialists. If you hurt your hand, you go to a hand specialist, your foot goes to a foot specialist. Whereas Eastern medicine takes it more holistically and treats everything at once.
Robert Lee:
So maybe that treating the whole A to Z treatment maybe not acceptable to a couple of the public. So they may have those question because of that. I think we do have our weakness in a certain way, but however traditional Eastern medicine is surviving for a reason.
Catherine Hong:
Now we have another listener question. This is from Sonya Hong. She emailed us saying, “Is there any intersection of Western and Eastern medicine? I.e., are there concepts or practices that they have in common? Are there practitioners of Western medicine who also incorporate Eastern practices? I feel like this would be the best of both worlds.” So I love the first half especially, are there basic tenets in common?
Robert Lee:
It’s a medicine. We’re dealing with the human body. So that’s the commonality. It’s just that we speak in a different language. How to describe the conditions may be different than what Western medicine is recalled. And they categorize by putting it into diagnosis and as if this is the only diagnosis you have to use. But we call it G deficiency, we call it blood stagnation. So it’s just a language barrier I guess. But the commonality is we’re dealing the human body. So that’s the cross bridge. And now it is more like a turf ward right now is going on that the Western medical doctors, they want to be part of… They want to practice acupuncture by calling dry needling. And then I’m pretty sure the Eastern Medical Practice Center here, we want to practice more of a diagnostic medicine like practice maybe taking x-rays or something. I’m pretty sure there is some degree of overlap
Erin Lee:
Integration.
Catherine Hong:
What do you think, Erin?
Erin Lee:
I think it is completely just a language difference even with the… And the commonality is the human body. But if you look at acupuncture meridians that were put into medical texts 5,000 years ago, they follow major nerve pathways. So we might call it a meridian, but in Western medicine-
Robert Lee:
Dermatome.
Erin Lee:
It’s the nervous system, right?
Robert Lee:
Nervous system.
Catherine Hong:
You mentioned a little bit of a turf war or a battling. So I’m curious in your own lives, Robert, you’re the father of a five-year-old girl?
Robert Lee:
Yes. Isabelle.
Catherine Hong:
In your treatment of her or in her life, does she go to a pediatrician, like a Western medicine pediatrician or are there in your own life, do you go get a checkup and who do you see?
Robert Lee:
Just giving my little bit of health conditions to share my health conditions. Recently I had a really bad liver. Engine was a little high and all that because of stress.
Catherine Hong:
And how did you know that?
Robert Lee:
Because I went to the Western doctor as an annual checkup and the blood test results came out and it was a little bit elevated and their approach was because my ferritin was really high. And one of the treatment for that is bloodletting. Actually, they suggest to go to a blood donation center and donate blood. So we as an acupuncture, we have a perfect technique to bloodletting. So because cupping, they’re called wet cupping, meaning that we suck the blood from the body. But you’re using the negative pressure.
Juliana Sohn:
Do you make a decision in the body to let the blood out?
Erin Lee:
Like a puncture.
Robert Lee:
Yes. Yes, yes, you have to. Not incision, but use the lancet, just puncture. So I went to my colleague’s clinic and told what’s going on and I went there and every time can you just get the blood out as a part of the treatment for myself. So yes, Western medicine would still go first. Definitely for-
Catherine Hong:
In that case you had maybe a little bit of a diagnostic test, but you treated yourself, you figured out your own treatment.
Robert Lee:
That was a suggestion. And then instead of going to the blood donation and actually got a treatment for my back and I can’t actually get a treatment for the muscle stiffness at the same time. I’m pretty sure they all agree as well. Western medicine is really strong in diagnostic medicine, emergency medicine, and surgical medicine.
Catherine Hong:
What about infectious diseases like antibiotics, things like that?
Robert Lee:
Right. So the infectious disease, infectious control. [foreign language] Eastern medicine and we’re more of a preventative medicine, wellness care as well as treating the symptoms and treating the conditions as well. They’re known for that. So to me, I’m bringing my daughter for that reason just to find out if there’s anything wrong with her emergency such as high fever, all the kids have it right then we have to bring to the emergency room because it’s quick release, a quick treatments. I’m not going to give her needles for when she has 110 degree. I would rather put ice on her and give her antibiotics or anything that is necessary.
Catherine Hong:
Got it. What about you, Erin? How do you balance in your own life where maybe family members?
Erin Lee:
I’ve always found that Eastern medicine can treat 80% of things before you need pills or surgery. It’s treatable, preventable. Like you said, Western medicine is great at acute care, surgery, emergencies, traumas, things like that. The difference between Eastern and Western, one of them is that Western medicine looks at disease is all the same. For example, diabetes, high blood pressure, you’re pretty much given the same. Everyone gets metformin, everyone gets the same drug, whereas Eastern medicine you can treat it based on why you have that condition. So I think most things are preventable and treatable with Eastern medicine before you need to go to pills or surgery.
Juliana Sohn:
Well, depending on the ailments, I think generally Eastern medicine tends to feel less invasive. The reason that I was introduced to Dr. Erin is because she treated my father who had spinal stenosis. His Western doctor had said that there was nothing that they can do. It’s degenerative and he was getting spinal injections to mask the pain and it was hit or miss. Sometimes they would get it and sometimes they wouldn’t and then he would have to wait three months if they missed the spot for insurance to cover the next dose of getting a shot. And so he had to sit in pain for three months waiting.
And so he got treated from Dr. Erin and he felt great The next day he said he felt lighter, he slept better. And this was somebody who had been told that there’s nothing that we can do for you. I thought it was really interesting that one of the comments Dr. Erin had said was the more Western treatments like these shots, these steroids or whatnot that you get, the harder it is to get integrative treatment because of the disruptions I guess that your body has already gone through. And I wondered if you can maybe talk about that?
Erin Lee:
I know a lot of the times when patients come in with back pain, they’ve had surgery already. That’s trauma to their body. They have a lot of scar tissue, a lot of adhesions down there. So it’s just harder to treat when there’s other structural issues going on when they’ve had other things already before they come.
Robert Lee:
And also the Western medicine with medication, it actually disrupt the balance for internal conditions.
Erin Lee:
For internal conditions.
Robert Lee:
That could also can make our treatment hotter. But however, people do come to the acupuncture clinics or Eastern Medicine clinic as their last resource.
Juliana Sohn:
They’ve tried everything else.
Robert Lee:
But don’t get me wrong, I mean Western medicine will treat the structure accordingly, but when they come to our clinic with all this damages after surgery, all this scar tissue adhesions is already formed, definitely is hard for us to unwind the condition
Erin Lee:
Even for internal conditions, a lot of these patients are coming in on medications and so we’re fighting against the side effects of those medications as well.
Catherine Hong:
I see
Robert Lee:
A lot of patients are using multi drug because to treat side effects to treat not only to treat the main cause, but because of the side effect of it.
Juliana Sohn:
The nausea. Yeah. Yeah.
Catherine Hong:
You ever had a patient come in, you saw what they had and then you thought about it and you said, “I suggest you see another type of doctor.” Has that ever happened where you send them to an oncologist or…
Robert Lee:
Of course. I’m a chiropractor as well, so I view, I read MRIs and the CTs and x-rays and if there’s a tumor that all the other orthopedics Western doctor missed, obviously I have to send them back.
Catherine Hong:
Nonsurgical thing. But what about a nonsurgical thing?
Juliana Sohn:
Under what conditions would you send one of your patients to a Western?
Robert Lee:
Emergency case. Meaning for sure there’s a stroke is coming that the patient is showing those signs. People come in for the pain, but yet people will show those emergency, that red flex signs. Obviously, we need to definitely draw them to the Western medicine and not because of the actual help that they can get from them, but also the legal aspect as well. Eastern medicine we’re still not really protected by the system I guess. So if you miss those reflex signs and still treat them the conditions that they came in, but yet the reflex signs are there and we missed it. It’s a big no-no for us as well as the patients. I actually did send out my patient a couple of times. Matter of fact, whenever I saw there’s a sign of stroke and bleeding signs of internal issues and emergency case, right away you have to send the patient to the emergency rooms.
Juliana Sohn:
You made a comment earlier about turf war between Eastern integrative medical practitioners. I have noticed people using terms like long needling. Somebody said to me, “Oh, I had a pinched nerve. So I went to my physical therapist who did long needling on me.” And I said, “What is that?” And they described acupuncture. And I said, “Well, isn’t that acupuncture?” And they said, “Oh, no, no, no. Acupuncture only goes really shallow and this goes really deep into the muscle and whatnot.” And I thought, “I wonder what Dr. Erin would say about that because sound right.” And when I mentioned it, Dr. Erin had said people are trying to rebrand repackage Eastern medicine for people who may be biased or don’t believe in Eastern medicine and they’re using different words and calling the same practices, different things. I wondered if you could talk about that going on in America?
Robert Lee:
Those are our daily [foreign language]. Patient comes in and they’re going to physical therapy and they’re doing dry needling. It’s acupuncture.
Erin Lee:
Trigger point therapy, therapy releasing muscle fascia. Anything with a needle is acupuncture. And that’s written in medical text from 5,000 years ago where they’re looking for these tender spots that in medical text is called ASHA points or I don’t know Korean medicine, but they’re called trigger points in Western medicine and that’s what they’re needling. But they rebranded and call it dry needling.
Catherine Hong:
Who came up with that?
Robert Lee:
AMA. It’s been going on since the acupuncture was introduced to the Western world. And that’s how the Western medicine is become huge because they slowly absorb.
Juliana Sohn:
What’s another example?
Robert Lee:
They’re not observed yet, but the osteopath dos are absorbed by the Western medicine. And another example, the word the cupping, you know how the new cupping, they call it? Myofascia decompression therapy. So they’re coming up with this new terminology that is sound like more acceptable to the Western world and they practice, they just claim it. And this is physical therapy, this is manual therapy and this is myofascial release technique.
Erin Lee:
But I mean the good thing is though, in New York, that dry needling that was done by PTs who took a weekend course to be certified to do it. It’s illegal now in New York, so only licensed acupuncturists can do it. So it was recognized that it’s acupuncture.
Juliana Sohn:
We wanted to ask practical advice and questions about treatment. We have a listener question from Kevin and his question is, “I wanted to ask what are some things to look out for or ask when trying to find a good acupuncturist?” Along with this question I’ve had some people ask me, are acupuncturists real doctors? How do you know somebody has a license and what do you look out for besides 400 hours of treatment over a weekend or something like that? What should they be looking for?
Robert Lee:
They definitely need to look for the paper on the wall says licensed acupuncturist.
Catherine Hong:
And who licensed it? New York State?
Robert Lee:
Yes.
Catherine Hong:
New York State, okay.
Robert Lee:
Okay. Just like USA, every state have their licensure policies, I guess the system. So you need to be licensed, meaning that you need to pass the national exam to become an acupuncturist.
Erin Lee:
There’s several board exams you have to pass. It’s a four-year school of program. It’s not something that you can do with a weekend course.
Catherine Hong:
So if you’re a licensed acupuncturist, that means you’ve done it the four years?
Erin Lee:
Yeah. In the states, it’s a three four year program. You can be a licensed acupuncturist and go a step further and get a clinical doctorate, which is the same as a chiropractor or dentist or anything like that.
Robert Lee:
Even a medical doctor. They’re a doctor, but they’re at master’s level. There’s the same educational level, I guess.
Juliana Sohn:
Four years and you get licensed, but you don’t get to call yourself a doctor.
Robert Lee:
Depends on which state you practice. So such as State of Florida, they call it acupuncture physician in their license. So they’re a doctor, they’re physicians. Which other state is it? Colorado I think they’re calling as a doctor of oriental medicine. So in their license they have that title, the credentials. So the 50 states all different types of credentials.
Juliana Sohn:
Okay. So that seems problematic.
Robert Lee:
Yeah, New York State, majority of states called LAC licensed acupuncturists.
Juliana Sohn:
Okay. So Dr. Erin, you did the extra two years to get the doctor, correct?
Erin Lee:
Additional year.
Juliana Sohn:
Additional year. But if you hadn’t, you would be?
Erin Lee:
Just a licensed acupuncturist. I don’t think that’s any distinction in how you should choose a practitioner though. There’s plenty of people that have been practicing. Even getting a doctorate degree is a fairly recent past few years. It’s constantly evolving in the United States. So it’s something that was only even introduced a few years ago. So there have been people that have been practicing for decades, but who choose not to go back to school to get that doctorate.
Catherine Hong:
So what would you look for? Tell us.
Erin Lee:
The way I choose anything in my life is by reviews. Whether I’m shopping for something or any healthcare practitioner, look at all their Google reviews.
Robert Lee:
Yeah, that’s a current generation method of finding a good doctor, I guess. But however, what I’m trying to mention, this is the Eastern medicine, it’s a skill, it’s a language and more experience that you have a better you are. Although the information itself is not changing, you need to look for the practitioners who have enough experience. I think that’s a good way. I’m not putting the young new practitioners down, but it is hard to introduce someone who’s good because we don’t really claim as a specialist in a certain aspect. But that’s more of the Western view of the medicine. But however, maybe Erin’s different than what I believe, but the Eastern medicine should also be specialized in certain fields of medicine.
Juliana Sohn:
They do that in Korea, don’t they?
Robert Lee:
Yes. Here in the State, the practitioners claiming even next door where I am, there’s a clinic for a Chinese medicine for infertility. So they only do infertility works. Then if my patient comes in and they’re looking for the infertility treatment, then I’ll just refer to them because I’m more considered as a pain management. So I think that’s the way of evolve ourself to be more recognized as a specialist in a certain field of medicine.
Catherine Hong:
In researching this episode and looking for practitioners, we found a lot of practitioners who went to Pacific College. And both of you have trained there or done teaching there, that school just kept coming up.
Erin Lee:
There’s a lot of great schools, but Pacific College is one of the largest in the United States. So they have three campuses in San Diego, Chicago, and New York. But the reason why I chose Pacific College and where I think they excel is that it’s a four-year program like I said, and half of that is biomedicine. So you have a good mix of Western and Eastern education there.
Catherine Hong:
Okay. So that’s another thing maybe listeners just to know the name. I don’t know. Robert, what do you think?
Juliana Sohn:
What are some good names of schools marker?
Catherine Hong:
We’re looking for some hard things to grasp.
Robert Lee:
I did. Yeah.
Juliana Sohn:
Our listeners need help.
Robert Lee:
[foreign language]. That’s the problem. But however, [foreign language] Eastern medicine, [foreign language] just try anyone.
Catherine Hong:
Okay. Someone needs to translate what I just missed.
Juliana Sohn:
Okay.
Erin Lee:
So they have a lot of Korean practitioners, they have a lot of pride. They all think that they’re the best, right?
Robert Lee:
Because you were dealing with something called chi is invisible.
Erin Lee:
A lot of it is based on intuition and how good you are.
Juliana Sohn:
I mean this goes into one of our other listener questions referrals. This person was a great acupuncturist. They worked for me. Sometimes that acupuncturist won’t work for somebody else.
Robert Lee:
Exactly.
Juliana Sohn:
I think was it Sonya’s other question?
Catherine Hong:
Isn’t it Kevin?
Juliana Sohn:
Oh, Kevin said, “Hi, my name is Kevin and my question is, as someone who has done acupuncture before and was unsure what I should be feeling, what other signs that treatment is or is not working?” And Sonya had a question where she said, I was treated for, I think it was hot flashes and insomnia for about three months. Couldn’t tell if it was just because the treatment took three months. If it was a natural progression of the treatment or it was just that she was going through her menopause cycle, it was it placebo? She couldn’t tell. And so does acupuncture work for everyone? Is it really a matter of, you said shop around?
Erin Lee:
The reason why acupuncture can’t fit into the Western model of being into that scientific method is because Eastern medicine, acupuncture looks at every individual differently. So everyone has a different reason why they have certain symptoms or conditions and so they’re treated individually. So you can go to 10 different acupuncturists and they might be treated with different points, different prescriptions from each of those people.
Juliana Sohn:
But then is there a right way?
Erin Lee:
But another difference is where they might’ve gone. There’s a lot of different ways to practice. So you and I talked about it, but there’s community practices or individual one-on-one and you may have different results from going to a different type of place.
Juliana Sohn:
Yeah. So this is something that I learned that I did not know before. When you think of acupuncture, thousands of years old, it seems that there are different ways of practicing and different modalities. Is that the right word? I thought, “Is it like yoga?” Everybody does yoga, but then when you start doing yoga, there’s Hatha, there’s Iyengar, there’s Mysore, and there are so many different ways of doing it that if you don’t know anything about yoga, you’re like what? Are there different styles of acupuncture?
Robert Lee:
I think I need to clear this out a little bit by rewind all the information that we shout out from the past 30 minutes. The Korean medicine is a form of medicine that where they do have clinical practice guidelines so that certain conditions, you do this with certain ways, regardless of who you are individually or different, there’s a certain herbal formula that we prescribe for the certain conditions. It was all proven through the case studies, the long years of case studies. Going back to the question, we do practice in the similar way because of that, the way we learn and educate ourself. So rather than using the acupuncture, I may prescribe the herbal medicine for the patient. So it’s just a practice center’s choice but-
Erin Lee:
There’s so many different ways to treat a patient. There are a lot of different styles of acupuncture, not just an herbal, but some people I was explaining to you before, a lot of times in say a community center, you’re limited. You’re lying there with a bunch of other people in one room. And so the practitioner may only choose certain points that they can access on your hands, feet. They may not go local to treat back pain. Whereas some practitioners, for myself, I do go deep, I do trigger points, but there’s other styles where other practitioners, they choose not to go local, they’ll just choose distal points. So it may work and it may not work for certain people, but you just have to keep looking for the right practitioner for you because there’s so many different styles out there.
Robert Lee:
There’s no 100%, there’s no cure… There’s no one medicine that cure everything. So even the Western medicine, the research, when you actually look into their research papers, they always aim for 33% or improve. That is called significant change to this whatever their research on. So I always have joke by telling my patients, if your conditions get better in 50%, would you accept that? They say, “Of course. Even a 10% I accept because how much pain did they have.” We only can try hard to help them. But maybe the medicine that I understand is not perfect for that person. I cannot help 100 of them, 100% of all my patients. So maybe half of them can be helpful by Dr. Erin because of the different style that we practice. So that applies to Western medicine as well.
Speaker 6:
When my mom was ill with cancer, I know that her friends would come over and make this giant concoction of deer antler and mountain herbs and I was never quite sure what was happening. But there was a giant pot on the stove at all times and I think it did make her feel better. I don’t know if that is a placebo effect or if there’s some valid reason why a deer antler have nutrients for someone who’s recovering from an illness. Thank you.
Catherine Hong:
Several people, when I mentioned we were interviewing Korean medicine doctors, they all said, “What is the deal with the deer antlers?” So just tell me about that ingredient. What does it do? Where did the deer antlers even come from? Where did you find them?
Juliana Sohn:
How do you source deer?
Catherine Hong:
And what is in them that makes them so powerful?
Robert Lee:
So it’s an essence, basically the animal’s blood, [foreign language]?
Juliana Sohn:
Marrow?
Erin Lee:
It’s the same reason why now bone broth soup is so trendy.
Catherine Hong:
Oh, why deer? There are other animals with antlers. So I’m just curious. Is it the deer specifically?
Robert Lee:
They actually did a huge research on the why deer antler is so clinically effective. And interestingly, they found the deer that is from Russia or west is not so much effective compared to the…
Catherine Hong:
They’re different deer, right? There’s deer in my backyard. I don’t know if that’ll be the same as a deer from Korea, right?
Robert Lee:
So there are definitely research out there, which I cannot speak of because… But however, deer is the known herb for the people who’s recovering from the chronic illness and long-term bodily weakness. So [foreign language] is definitely thus resource for recovering the health.
Catherine Hong:
Weakness, just strength, general strength.
Juliana Sohn:
Strength building.
Catherine Hong:
And so if one of you were to prescribe something that contained deer antler, where does that deer antler come from?
Robert Lee:
Now, Korea also have a deer antler farm that they cut the deer antlers and make it as a herbal. They sell it to the practice centers. Also, Alaska deer antlers is also important to the practitioners.
Erin Lee:
In general though, those kinds of things are not prescribed in everyday practice clinically. They may be extreme cases. More and more practitioners are going away from using animal products here as well.
Catherine Hong:
Interesting.
Erin Lee:
There are things that have been used historically of course. And in certain cases you’ll still use them.
Catherine Hong:
You don’t prescribe them very much. It sounds like.
Robert Lee:
Actually I do as a poyak, meaning [foreign language], Korean medicine poyak [foreign language].
Juliana Sohn:
But what is poyak?
Erin Lee:
Strengthening.
Robert Lee:
[foreign language]. Just like five-hour energy drink. But we have an herbal product in it. Yeah.
Erin Lee:
So he’s saying when the body is weak you want to give them a strengthening, tonifying-
Catherine Hong:
[inaudible].
Juliana Sohn:
Yeah. The word tonics feels very old-fashioned.
Robert Lee:
So the herbal medicine has big aspect of the use for treatment for the certain conditions. And there’s also a current medicine is big aspect where poyak, like tonic herb such as the after delivering a baby that they give poyak to the mom such, so…
Erin Lee:
I guess it’s not as common here in the US, but it’s kind of like how bone broth is here. You would also use that for blood nourishing or strengthening.
Robert Lee:
Or meal cook, right?
Erin Lee:
Yeah. Yeah.
Catherine Hong:
Well, that was another question.
Juliana Sohn:
Can we talk about meal cook? That was a question. Why do new mothers eat miyeokguk?
Erin Lee:
Seaweed has is good for swelling, right? Edema, things like that.
Robert Lee:
Even the chemical aspect, the microcell aspect of the seaweed or kelp, they’re known for those aspect of improve the circulation, tonifying or improve the… Because of the identical aspect, the blood tonic. So the mom who just deliver a chunk of her body out of the system and they actually bleed out, right? So just to nourish the actual blood loss, they give miyeokguk. And miyeok is known for that effect.
Juliana Sohn:
So is that considered hanyak?
Robert Lee:
Yes.
Juliana Sohn:
It is.
Robert Lee:
Yes. To me, it’s a hanyak.
Erin Lee:
What? Miyeokguk?
Robert Lee:
Mm-hmm.
Erin Lee:
So I think the difference between a lot of misconception also, I think you and I were having this talk, Juliana, Koreans grow up with certain foods and they think that’s hanyak or miyeokguk. Hanyak really is herbal medicine, is a combination of different herbs that work together as a formula to treat certain conditions. Whereas if you’re doing a single herb, it’s really like anything else in Western nutrition is just food. So you’re looking at it for nutritional value.
Robert Lee:
This is where it become the hanbang, you can call it as hanbang. Everything is within the Korean medicine, but it’s a folk medicine, right? So we eat certain food for certain conditions. [foreign language].
Erin Lee:
Dandelion,
Robert Lee:
Dandelion, the cooling.
Catherine Hong:
And what’s that for?
Robert Lee:
Oh, cooling. Clears heat.
Erin Lee:
Clear heat from the liver and that’s used in a lot of different herbal formulas, but it’s never used as a single herb.
Robert Lee:
But now, Korean eat as a kimchi.
Erin Lee:
Yeah. Yeah. So you eat it as food though, right? In cuisine.
Juliana Sohn:
I see. I see.
Erin Lee:
So that becomes a folk medicine. So the Korean medicine is really in their life.
Juliana Sohn:
Embedded in the culture.
Robert Lee:
Yes, embedded in the culture. So that’s why when it comes to the medicine, they don’t really think of the Korean medicine as medicine.
Erin Lee:
I think that’s why they’re more dismissive of it because it’s already something that they’re grown up with.
Juliana Sohn:
So I have a personal anecdote that I wanted to share and run by you two. My uncle who was a priest in Korea had a stroke and he had a hard time recovering one side of his face and the muscle, the nerves, and he went to hanbang practitioner and he saw improvement. And because of that, he cast off Western practices and he was on the hunt for some hanyak. And when I was visiting one year, he was like, the next week he was off to China. I was like, “I want to go.” So he actually took me along with him. We flew into Yunnan Province. We took a 10-hour van ride up to Dali and he was on the search for black bear gallbladder and tiger testicles.
Catherine Hong:
So why are you laughing? Do you think this is real?
Juliana Sohn:
Is this nuts? Is this crazy real? We actually found it.
Robert Lee:
It is real. It is real.
Juliana Sohn:
We went into a hanyak store in this rural area and my uncle was like, “We don’t want this stuff.” The priest and his secretary and his stained-glass cutter were the three of them were on the trip and they’re like, “We know you got the goods in the back.” It was like a drug trade. We know you got the goods. I think tigers on the engaged species and we got this money come back in a couple of days, we’ll find it. And there was a trade-off and then they wrapped it up in plastic, taped it to their body and we went through airport customs. I was younger. They didn’t want me to carry anything. It was like a mission, a drug smuggling mission.
Catherine Hong:
Tell us what’s your take on this, these ingredients?
Robert Lee:
That’s the older generation of who believes in the Eastern medicine, the Korean medicine. She mentioned it before. More and more we’re going away from the animal products because the plant-based herbs, there are a lot of good herbs there can replace it. But however, the effects of it, obviously, I don’t know, maybe there strong… Potency is very high. Maybe they’re going after this cold bladder.
Juliana Sohn:
Is it real? Is it true? My whole thing is how do you ingest it and digest it?
Robert Lee:
Well, actually they make it as a decoction. They usually intake with other herbs and they cook it together.
Juliana Sohn:
I see. Like you said, it’s not a single herb or single ingredient. It’s in combination with other ingredients.
Robert Lee:
If I’m not wrong, probably that’s how they consume.
Erin Lee:
Most herbs are decocted or brewed. So that’s how you get all the nutrients out of it.
Robert Lee:
Yes.
Juliana Sohn:
Okay. That’s a new word, decocted.
Robert Lee:
Decoction.
Juliana Sohn:
Oh, that’s the extraction.
Robert Lee:
That’s extraction.
Juliana Sohn:
Okay.
Catherine Hong:
Another question. There was a time when Korean people were all wearing these magnet bracelets. What is the deal with that?
Erin Lee:
Is that your question or a reader?
Catherine Hong:
That’s our question. My parents have them.
Juliana Sohn:
My parents wore them.
Robert Lee:
That’s not Korean medicine.
Catherine Hong:
What is that?
Robert Lee:
That’s not Korean medicine.
Catherine Hong:
That was a Chinese thing in what? The ’80s.
Erin Lee:
Magnet bracelet?
Juliana Sohn:
Yeah.
Catherine Hong:
It was very popular in the Korean community for a little while. Magnet.
Robert Lee:
Do you know America back about 100 years ago, there’s a magnetic practitioner?
Juliana Sohn:
They were American.
Robert Lee:
Right. It’s a business. It’s a people in the business aspect. They came up with this product and they sell it and they probably borrow the Korean medicine, the meridians, the effects of it because the language is so easy for Korean people to accept those because when they say, “Oh, this will improve your circulation. This will get your pain off from you.” So it’s just
Erin Lee:
When things sound kind of crazy to us, it’s easy to discount it like, “Where did this come from?” But just like acupuncture, Eastern medicine, if you don’t know the theories behind it, why you’re doing, what you’re doing, it sounds crazy, right? So now with diagnostics, modern medicine, they’re proofing and functional MRIs at a certain point on the leg that was used for thousands of years for eye conditions. They’re proving now functional MRIs show that the optic area of the brain is lit up with that point. There’s a lot of reasons that we use or do certain things that the public may not know, but the same with magnetic bracelets, I don’t know exactly why, but I don’t discount anything.
Juliana Sohn:
It’s probably based in something, right?
Erin Lee:
Because the whole body is an electromagnetic field, it’s bioelectric. If it’s down to a cellular level, it’s electrons, neutrons, it’s positively, negatively charged so it may have an effect.
Robert Lee:
And interestingly, those products, they actually applied into our so-called acupuncture points. So it is effective because of it’s stimulating those acupuncture points. Matter of fact, I do actually own a magnet product.
Juliana Sohn:
The tooth comes out.
Catherine Hong:
It sounded like we were debunking it, but now it sounds like you think it’s legit.
Robert Lee:
I have to be honest because that’s not a medicine. One that I was about to share with you, they make a cloth, but they have magnets in certain positions and I wear it in the head and the [foreign language], they actually borrow or they use the Eastern medicine theory or the meridian points and they came up with this product and they advertise and this works great.
Erin Lee:
It’s the same with those C sickness bracelets. The reason why it works is you put it on a major acupuncture point for nausea.
Juliana Sohn:
I see, I see.
Erin Lee:
So it’s [inaudible].
Robert Lee:
Yeah, you’re right. It was a big on back in 20 years ago. Yeah.
Juliana Sohn:
Thank you both so much for your time and expertise. We wanted to ask as hanbang practitioners, are there any misinformation out there that you’d like to clear up?
Robert Lee:
We are practicing a medicine that help the body. We’re not practitioner who performed folk medicine. There is [foreign language], the Korean hand folk medicine. We are separate from it. The acupuncturist, we do not practice [foreign language] because that’s more considered folk medicine. The Korean medicine or traditional Chinese medicine, the acupuncture, we do have our own distinctive system of understanding the human body and how we treat conditions and disease and so forth. It is a form of a medicine that you can trust and you can get a lot of help from.
Juliana Sohn:
Dr. Erin Lee, what would you like to leave listeners with?
Erin Lee:
This is a medicine that’s been around and time tested for over 5,000 years, way longer than modern Western medicine. And there’s a reason why it stuck around for so long, thousands of years of empirical evidence. And I think that’s observation or repeated results and that is scientific method. I would throw away any kind of preconceived notions that you might have or misunderstandings or even ignorance because you just don’t know the reasoning behind it, and just try it out.
Juliana Sohn:
Thank you to Dr. Erin Lee and Dr. Robert Lee for being our guest for our hanbang episode. A special thank you to Dr. Robert Lee for welcoming us into his home for this recording.
You can follow Dr. Erin Lee on Instagram, @workinprogressacu. Find her website at workinprogressacu.com. You can find Dr. Robert Lee at wellintegrativecare.com. We’ll add their contact information to our show notes. Please follow K-Pod on Instagram, @koreanamericanstory.
I’m Juliana Sohn, so your co-host, producer, and photographer. Catherine Hong is our co-host, producer, and editor. Our videographer and producer is Young Sun. Our audio engineer is AJ Valente, and our executive producer is HJ Lee. K-Pod is a production of Korean American story. Thanks for listening.
Credits
Co-host, Producer, Photographer
Juliana Sohn @juliana_sohn
Co-host, Producer, Editor
Catherine Hong @catherinehong100
Audio Engineer
AJ Valente
Executive Producer
HJ Lee
Production Manager
Kimberly YoungSun