John Cho
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In recent years we’ve seen a boom of Asian American actors in film and TV. But for decades, John Cho was practically the only one. He first came to fame in 2004 playing Harold in the Harold and Kumar films, a role that challenged many people’s ideas about what a leading man could look like. He’s built his career thoughtfully ever since, taking roles (Sulu in the Star Trek films, Spike Spiegel in Netflix’s Cowboy Bebop) that don’t play into negative stereotypes. The son of a minister, Cho was born in Seoul and moved to the States when he was six. He has just written his first book, Troublemaker, a middle grade novel about a 12-year-old Korean American boy’s experience of the LA riots. In a candid and open conversation, Cho recalls his own experience of 사이구(SaIGu), his memories of growing up in the church and the bottled up anger he’s often felt as an Asian American man. Juliana and Catherine also get to hear about Cho’s love of Little House on the Prairie and how books helped him through his peripatetic childhood.
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Juliana Sohn:
Today, we’re excited to share our interview with actor, John Cho, who’s just written his first book titled Troublemaker. It’s a middle grade novel that follows the events of the LA riots through the eyes of Jordan, a 12-year-old Korean American boy whose parents own a liquor store in Koreatown. Cho says he was inspired to write it after the killing of George Floyd, and the ensuing protest, which reminded him of the turmoil of 사이구 (SaIgu).
Catherine Hong:
In recent years, we’ve seen a boom of Asian American actors in film and television, but for decades, John Cho was practically the only one. He first came to fame in 1999 with a small but memorable role in the movie American Pie. His big breakthrough was in 2004, playing Harold in and the Harold & Kumar films, a role that challenged a lot of people’s ideas about what a leading man could look like. John Cho has since come to be known as “the Asian guy who seems not so Asian” by building his career thoughtfully around taking roles that don’t play into negative stereotypes. Cho was born in Seoul and moved to the states in 1978, when he was six. He studied English at UC Berkeley, which is where he began acting with the East West Players, an Asian American theater group. Today, Cho lives in Los Angeles with his wife and two children, a 13-year-old son and a nine-year-old daughter.
Juliana Sohn:
We should explain to listeners that our conversation with John is actually in two parts, because as our first interview was cut short. We had so many questions we wanted to ask him, so we were so grateful that we were able to continue our conversation. Anyway, here’s our interview with John Cho. He kicks it off by reading a passage from his book, Troublemaker
John Cho:
Truth was I was having a hard time in school, since sixth grade started. It wasn’t always hard. For a long time, it was even kind of fun. The place where I got to see my friends and get out of the house. But lately I was struggling and home was feeling smaller than usual. Anytime 엄마 (mom) and 아빠 (dad) weren’t working, they were there fighting, stressing, talking in low voices about how they couldn’t let this business fail. They just couldn’t.
Sometimes the low voices got loud, but whenever I would poke my head in 엄마 (mom) would wave me away. “걱정 하지마” she said, don’t worry. Always, don’t worry. After that was a history test, a big red D at the top of the paper. I crumpled it, dropped it in my backpack. The tests kept piling up like snowballs in my bag. And the thing was, I couldn’t explain it, even if I wanted to. I didn’t know how to explain that school was hard for me. That ever since Sarah got busier with volleyball and all her other clubs, I would come home after school and just watch TV with 할아버지 (grandfather), because it was easier than trying to do anything else.
That by the time 엄마 (mom) and 아빠 (dad) came home from work and asked me if I did my homework, it was also easier to lie and say, “Yes, of course,’ because they already look so tired. I didn’t want to add any more worry onto their shoulders. That whenever I did try to sit down to study, all I could see was their stressed faces full of things they wouldn’t tell me about. “Don’t worry,” 엄마 (mom) would say, trying to protect me from their world where there wasn’t enough money. “Don’t worry,” I would say back, trying to protect them from my world where there wasn’t enough focus. “걱정 하지마,” back and forth, just like that. Protecting each other from our worlds, until we were living on two totally different planets.
Catherine Hong:
Oh, my God. Damn, you’re an actor! That’s so good. It’s a great passage. The book is wonderful, and I love how, in this book, you have this protagonist who lives in both worlds, uses Korean phrases, but is really, like, an American kid. And I love the use of 걱정 하지마 (Don’t worry), because I know how you say that to your parents, they say that to you, and that you do end up kind of in your own worlds, protecting each other, but isolating yourselves. I wonder, is that a phrase that your parents used a lot in the house? Is that something from your own experience?
John Cho:
Yeah, absolutely. I think, I was very curious, especially at that age, what my parents were thinking, what they were doing, and I wanted to know more/ and they wanted to keep that separate. I think, part of the immigrant experience is also “I’m wiping history, that slate, clean for you. We’re going to start fresh, and you’re not going to have the heaviness that I inherited. And I’m going to spare you that.” But the more they hide it, the more they say, “Don’t worry,” the more invested, the more curious, the more worried you become, ironically. And I think it goes both ways.
As a teenager —and Jordan is 12 on the cusp of that weird time — the more individuating you start to do, the more you say, “Please don’t bother me. Don’t come in.” But ironically, it’s also the time when you really need it the most, when you need guidance, when you affirmations of love and connections. So it’s a little family tragedy that so many families have to deal with. And I think it’s exacerbated given the conditions of immigrant life.
Juliana Sohn:
So you have said that you were a bit of a class clown when you were younger. Were you like Jordan and a bit of a troublemaker? I mean, you’re a minister’s son and there was probably a lot of pressure to be a little perfect. I wondered, was Jordan modeled on you as a 12-year old at all?
John Cho:
A little bit. Yeah. I mean, I tried to take a lot from myself and my friends, so it was definitely a blend of me and my friends. I knew that I wanted to start with a very imperfect kid. I mean, it was kind of a knee jerk reaction to the model minority myth. And maybe you’ll understand this, but we always hated the fictional mythical, Peter Kim, who lived in Cerritos who got a 1600 on his SAT, who was in The Korea Times that my parents would show us to, say, “Why can’t you be more like Peter Kim from Cerritos?”
Juliana Sohn:
Oh, that’s so funny for me, it was Grace Park, who was the first Korean American valedictorian at Stuyvesant.
Catherine Hong:
God, my mom made me get tutored by her friend’s daughter, who was only a year older than me, and it was so humiliating.
John Cho:
Oh, that’s hilarious.
Catherine Hong:
It was embarrassing.
John Cho:
Well, so I knew that I didn’t want my character to be that guy, so it was anti-Peter Kim. So I knew we were starting there and I knew that was a lot more relatable to me. And really I was writing a book for younger me, even more so than I was writing a book for my kids. You know what I mean? So this was an homage to, although it wasn’t necessarily modeled after me, it was definitely for me at that age.
Catherine Hong:
Well, John, in reading about your life and learning that your dad was a minister, a 목사님, right?
John Cho:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Catherine Hong:
I thought, wow, that sounds like a lot of pressure, because everybody knows who you are. You can never skip church on a Sunday. And the whole community knows you’re the son of the minister. What was that like? From what I understand, his church, it was Church of Christ, right? Which is a bit more strict in certain ways.
John Cho:
Yeah. What was that like? I mean, it was a mix of a lot of things. I think it was a really, highly concentrated version of Korean culture, loving, surrounded by people, also a lot of fences. And, yes, I did feel more pressure, I would say, but I feel like when you’re living in a Korean community, your community shrinks, because you’re making your community tighter. And so sort of the gazes are a little more intense, but a lot of positives as well. So it was a very intense version of all the good and the bad I would say. But what you do feel, and I think a lot of Korean kids feel is the rules are defined and the rules are enforced through shame.
Catherine Hong:
And you were going to church every Sunday and you did Sunday school and-
John Cho:
Sure. Yeah, Wednesday night, Sunday morning, Sunday night. The old ladies get up for sunrise prayer sessions.
Juliana Sohn:
That’s my mom.
John Cho:
Yeah. No sweat for the kids. It was easy for the kids.
Juliana Sohn:
If we could bring it back to Troublemaker and some of the characters in that book. I really like that your book addresses, maybe, what could be the seeds of miscommunication, confusion that could lead to something just a lot more tragic later on. But at that he’s able to resolve it by making an effort and reaching out.
John Cho:
I guess, I have seen a lot of examples. I mean, I wasn’t particularly thinking about, extrapolating to where Jordan might go. I will also confess that this book was so impulsive and written quickly, and the idea came like a thunderbolt. I just went with my instincts on a lot of that stuff. And to that end, even my father, I wasn’t sure… I didn’t think it was a lot like my relationship with my dad. And my dad recently read it, and said, “Oh, wow, it’s made me think a lot about how I raised you and all this stuff.’ And I said, “You have to explain what you mean.” And he said, “I’m not ready to talk to you about that yet.”
Juliana Sohn:
Oh, so interesting.
John Cho:
So it’s been a surprise to me what I’ve put in and why I did it. I’m still sort of figuring it out. But, yeah, the reluctance to talk is something that been in my family, and in a lot of families. And I’ve known Asian American male friends of mine, in our 20s, I feel like we walked around with clenched fists in our pockets sort of ready to go because the way we’re dismissed by society. I think we harbor a lot of anger. And I’ve been with a couple of friends of mine, Asian American men, and they’re happy-go-lucky, until somebody pushes them, they cross a line, and then it’s all hell breaks loose. And I think that is from kind of keeping it bottled up.
This is a love story between two men who aren’t talking to one another, and at the end of the book, they connect and literally finally speak to one another. And so, hopefully, that’s a good thing that people pick up on.
Catherine Hong:
So it all takes place on the day of the LA riots, right?
John Cho:
Yeah. The first day of the LA riots.
Catherine Hong:
First day of the LA riots, the main characters is Jordan, whose father owns a liquor store in Koreatown. Jordan and his father have had a huge fight. The reader doesn’t know what they fought about, but Jordan is hiding some bad grades. He’s feeling very hurt. His father goes off to board up the store, and Jordan wants to help his father by bringing him a gun. How did you decide to write this book?
John Cho:
Well, I was going to write a different book altogether. I had to deal to write something different, and it was going to be a lighter book, but 2020 came and there were a lot of things happening that were making me reevaluate everything. The pandemic, the anti-Asian violence, George Floyd, and the Black Lives Matter protests. And, obviously, because of the pandemic, the kids were home and watching the news with us and there was a lot of confusion. So I was in a place where I was thinking about these things from the vantage point of a kid, because my kids were around.
And especially the anti-Asian violence and the murder of George Floyd made me sort of think about how I came to this country, what the country was in my head, when we first got here? What I grew up thinking it was? And where we were going? And it felt like —I’ve said this before — but it felt like the discussions I was having with my kids felt like something my parents might have had with me, but I never imagined that I would be having with my kids. There is a kind of assumption that each generation is going to have it better than the last. And I started thinking about another police brutality incident from my youth, the Rodney King incident, and my thoughts went back there. And then I started imagining what it might have been like for a kid.
Catherine Hong:
It was 1992, and back then you were at Berkeley. Is that right?
John Cho:
Yeah.
Catherine Hong:
What do you recall of that day or that time in your life?
John Cho:
I mean, the first thing I did was to call my parents and say, “Were you trapped in Koreatown? Are you okay?” And that sort of thing. And then, “Do we know anyone?” All that stuff and we didn’t, and so that was a exhale. And then you started seeing the men on the roofs with their guns. And then I thought, oh my God, they’re going to die, and they might kill people. And this is just going to explode and become a massacre. I mean, that’s what I was afraid of. And so I was just really panicked about that getting out of control. We had seen the situation in South LA get out of control already so fast, and I thought this could get really bloody. So I was panicked about that. I didn’t understand why they were up there. Now that I’m older, I kind of see what the meaning of that building beneath them was. That it was their life savings, maybe multi-generational savings, and it was their future. It was college. It was the mortgage. It was food on the table. So they were fighting quite literally for their family’s lives up on the roof. And that was the stance they were taking. The other thing that I didn’t really take into consideration at that age was that these weren’t “vigilantes” necessarily, because they were Korean immigrants, they were men who had gone through the military. And so they had a different relationship to guns, I think.
Catherine Hong:
Reading your book really made me think, okay, where was I when this happened? And I felt ashamed really, because I’m about your age. I was at college in New York, and I remember seeing the news in my dorm and being shocked, horrified, but also kind of removed from it, because we were in New York where it wasn’t nearly as bad. And also, I have to admit, because I felt like, well, we’re not Koreans who own liquor… my family, it’s a different kind of family, and I couldn’t identify exactly with what was going on. And I mostly thought about Rodney King and that injustice. On campus, that’s what everybody worked up about. And I wasn’t involved in Asian groups or anything at Columbia, so I feel like I missed something really important. This was a momentous, watershed moment in Korean American history. And I admit, I don’t think I was there for it.
John Cho:
I think, too, and I’m not necessarily speaking for you, but I’ll speak for me, but I think for a lot of us of that age range, I would gather, and I’m sure part of that was in me of having internalized the model minority myth, going, “That’s not the way we’re supposed to be.” We’re not behaving the way we’re supposed to be. At this age, I see it as ill-advised, but really courageous as well, but I didn’t see it that way then. I was like, “Listen, listen to what they’re telling us! Go inside, get safe.”
Catherine Hong:
Don’t make trouble — more trouble.
John Cho:
Don’t make trouble. Don’t be a troublemaker.
Juliana Sohn:
This is such an interesting conversation, because even with the three of us here, my parents owned a beauty supply store in downtown Newark. So they were definitely across the country, but of the demographic that would have been ransacked, basically. And my parents have had altercations with shoplifters, and they’ve been broken into numerous times. They’ve had their lives threatened. They’ve been held up. My impression, when I was in college in Rhode Island was, I was just so anguished and upset that the cops weren’t coming. That law and order had broken down and that the Koreans had to fend for themselves, but they were being portrayed and forced into a corner, and shown in such a non-flattering light.
John Cho:
Well, I kind of see the whole situation as having been defined by police action or lack of police action. One was, of course, the brutality against Rodney King. I’m sure the reason that Koreans owned guns in the first place down there was, they couldn’t count on police to come when they called.
Juliana Sohn:
Absolutely.
John Cho:
There’s a history of police injustice against African Americans. Then the day that happens, well, first they move the trial up to Simi Valley to get an all-white jury, then they announce the verdict. They were set free. Then the police abandon South Central and Koreatown altogether, and you saw the footage of the hundreds of police cars surrounding the federal building in Westwood. So I don’t know how to put this politely, it was an abdication of duty sort of all around. And there was all this anger, there’s this tremendous tornado of fury, and we were caught up in it. And I think a lot of Koreans felt like, “I don’t get it.” Obviously, there were the relations weren’t great between the two communities. And yet I think Koreans largely felt like, “I don’t get it, the cops were white. The jury was white, and the victim was black. And yet our stores are being targeted.” So it was very complicated, but the conditions were set up by police, I think, in every way.
Catherine Hong:
So what sort of research did you do for the book? Did you interview people who lived through it?
John Cho:
We didn’t do a whole lot of research. We were trying to make sure our timeline was right. I more interviewed friends and family to sort of get flavors. But the most critical person that we talked to was Richard Choi, who was a broadcaster at Radio Korea, and Radio Korea kind of became a character in the novel. He gave us, really, this insight that became, I don’t know, kind of the spine of the book. He said, “Well, I think the biggest thing for us is that prior to that event, I think, in my opinion, Koreans, we still thought of ourselves as sojourners. That we were not committed to being here deep down. We thought, well, maybe we’ll return to Korea someday. I don’t know. That they were keeping things open.” And after that day, he said, we really did become Korean Americans. He saw the rise of Korean American politicians. He just felt like roots were really planted that day. That sort of thing happens often after trauma, our blood was spilt, and I think there was a sort of mental shift, a group collective shift in the relationship to the country in which they were living.
Catherine Hong:
It seems like when you were in college, is sort of when you had this… Well, it was college when the events happened, the LA riots, but also when you started acting in the beginning was very much in the Asian American space of the East West Theater Company. Is that right?
John Cho:
Yeah.
Catherine Hong:
Before you went to college, though, what was your involvement in Asian American things or in Korean… How did you navigate that world?
John Cho:
I think when I came to college, I was open to that sort of thing… Well, I mean, I think in college I was trying out this new identity, which was being Asian American, which is a completely brand new thought to me. Before it was, when we said Americans in our house, my parents meant white people. So there were Americans and us, Koreans. And I think when I went to college, I was experimenting with this new identity, which was an Asian American. It was a new t-shirt to wear. And so I was trying that out, and it’s how I identified myself for years, I think. And now, it’s all over the place, but I’m closer to where I was when I was a kid. I think if I’m asked now, what are you, I would say, “I’m Korean,” and leave it at that. For sure, I was sort of trying it all out.
Catherine Hong:
You were an English major in college. If you hadn’t fallen into acting, what do you think that you would’ve pursued?
John Cho:
I didn’t know what I wanted to do. So I was sort of like, well, what keeps me reading books? Maybe I’ll just go to more school. And then I thought, maybe I’ll just get another English degree. And then after that, maybe I’ll teach English.
Catherine Hong:
You wanted to be a writer or maybe go to graduate school?
John Cho:
Yes. I was thinking that path, and thought maybe there’s a career for me as a writer. But I was not putting a tremendous amount of pressure on myself to figure it out. I was letting myself float. I figured, I was young. And even when I started acting, I fell into it in college. And then when I started acting, I just said, “Well, I’ll give it a couple years and see what happens. I’m young and I’ve got some years to burn.’
Catherine Hong:
And your parents didn’t have a specific idea of what they wanted you to be? Did they pressure you one way or the other, with law school or?
John Cho:
No, they weren’t pushy. I’m not sure why, but when I said I was going to major in English, they were just concerned, how are you going to pay the rent? How are you going to eat? That sort of thing, those were their real concerns. And when I said I was going to major in English, my dad said, “Well, maybe you can write the history of Koreans in America someday.” He was always seeing, “How can I better the community?”
Juliana Sohn:
Somebody said to me, “It’s an exciting time to be Korean right now.” I mean, you kind of blazed that acting path as a Korean American alone. And now you’ve got a lot more company. And I wondered if you could kind of comment on what you’ve seen that’s changed within your career as far as having a lot more Asian actors around?
John Cho:
Yeah, it’s awesome. I think when I was coming up, there was this idea of you were The One. And so being The One, it restricts your choices in a lot of ways, because you have to rebel against this or you have to go into this, you have to paint this portrait or… It’s much healthier to do it collectively. And I think that the change is not going to be driven by one person or one kind of breakthrough movie or breakthrough person. It’s much healthier that it’s being done in a collective way. And I love it. The other thing that’s really been nice is, I think the Asians that were in the industry when I started, everyone was sort of in their towers and sort of felt alone in all their positions. And now people are much more apt to know one another, to lean on one another. That’s a very sustainable model, I’d say. So things are really in a healthy place, I’d say. And there’s a lot of talent and the ethos is also different. That people aren’t looking to be The One. There aren’t a ton of people looking to be The One, but sort of knowing that we’re going to be together, I think that’s also a sustainable model.
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Catherine Hong:
Good morning, John. Thank you for joining us again to continue our conversation. Sorry about last time.
John Cho:
Not at all. I’m the one who should apologize.
Catherine Hong:
So one of the reasons we wanted to interview you is, I write a lot about children’s books. So I was so intrigued to read in your author’s note that you had originally been contracted to write a different middle grade book, a mystery. Can you tell us what that book was and why even a middle grade mystery?
John Cho:
Well, we didn’t get that far down the road, so I don’t have a whole lot of details. It was really when we were pitching out ideas that I changed course. But why middle grade? It was really that age is when books sort of meant most to me. Those middle grade years are awkward years in general, but in my life that was compounded by us moving around quite a bit during that time. So I felt like I relied on books more than most during that age for a safe place, and an identity that was apart from school and family.
Catherine Hong:
What books do you remember loving when you were that age?
John Cho:
It was a little before this, but I remember before that age that I got introduced to these books, but I would say the most important books of my young life were the Little House on the Prairie series.
Catherine Hong:
Me too.
John Cho:
Oh, really.
Catherine Hong:
Love them. And I still, to this day, I think about them all the time when I’m cooking. I think, “Would Ma Ingalls do this?” or, “Oh, those kids would’ve been happy with this toy.”
John Cho:
Oh, that’s fascinating. I think there was a kinship there because we were immigrants and they were pioneers. So I felt like I really connected with their story, and the characters. And so, yeah, I thought of my dad as pa and my mom as ma.
Juliana Sohn:
Were you Laura then?
John Cho:
I guess so. I guess I was Laura!
Catherine Hong:
Spunky, independent.
John Cho:
Well, I suppose-
Catherine Hong:
That’s so funny.
John Cho:
I’m the older one, I suppose I should be Mary. But no, I didn’t think of myself as half-pint.
Catherine Hong:
She’s too virtuous. I wasn’t sure if maybe you had been a Hardy Boys fan or something because you were doing a mystery. Why a mystery?
John Cho:
No, I didn’t read the Hardy Boys. I liked the Three Investigators. I liked the Great Brain.
Catherine Hong:
Oh, I love the Great Brain. Juliana, did you ever read the Great Brain?
Juliana Sohn:
No, I was Encyclopedia Brown, team Encyclopedia Brown.
Catherine Hong:
The Great Brain was the best.
John Cho:
And part of the spirit of the mystery novel, I think is in Troublemaker in that, what I loved about the mystery novels back then is kids solving problems adults couldn’t. I thought that was just a really gold the idea. And I quite enjoyed kids going out into the world and solving a little thing that adults were unequipped to do. And there is a bit of that, I think, that independence in Troublemaker. Jordan trying to get across LA without a car, without permission, at night that did feel kind of akin to that mystery plot. And they’re solving things, they’re solving little problems inside the novel.
Catherine Hong:
Did you, at one point, think of maybe writing an adult book, a memoir?
John Cho:
I’m actually not that keen on sharing details from my personal life, so a memoir seems like a stretch. But I have a lot of thoughts on various topics that maybe would be appropriate for a book one day.
Juliana Sohn:
Do you mean nonfiction then more like essays?
John Cho:
Yeah. If it was a memoir, it might be… If it was in the nonfiction category, I don’t know. I’m probably talking prematurely. It could be in the works. I mean, I could be convinced into doing that someday.
Juliana Sohn:
There was one interview that you gave on a podcast, Asian Enough, that I was particularly struck by the comments that you had made about Asian male anger. And you said you were tempted to gift the Valentine to the Asian male community by making a film of you just killing people, just going on a murderous rampage, because Asian men are really just ready to fight, because we’ve been shit on all our lives. And I was so gratified to hear you say that, and I thought it was so brave of you to say that out loud and bring up that topic. Because, even though I’m an Asian female, this is something that I’ve been thinking about ever since I was in college. I think everybody knows of a young man who stopped going to college and then had to go live with relatives in Korea to teach English, because this is the way that Korean Americans did mental health back then. You’ve really been sending these valentines to Asian American men kind of all along, because you were the first Asian male to do blank in film and TV, whether it be breaking stereotypes on accents or the Asian lead in a romantic series, or the Asian guy who gets the white girl. And I know that the Asian men are keeping track out there, and they must be cheering you on from the sidelines. And I know that they must reach out to you. And I wondered if that kind of helped to overcome it.
John Cho:
To some extent, I feel like a lot of the anger that I had as a young man has dissipated over the years, naturally, and I’m married and I have kids. So that’s not as a significant part of my life as it used to be, probably. But yeah, I still see it out there, but there’s so many questions in your question. I’m trying to figure out which one to answer.
Juliana Sohn:
I know, it’s like chock-full, because I’ve been dying to have this conversation with somebody! Which is why I was really excited that you had brought it up in that podcast.
John Cho:
But it’s definitely something I see all over the place with so many friends of mine, and it doesn’t take a whole lot of digging, if you’re honest, before you find it. And even I walk around with it, I think, and sometimes I feel like my life is… I can have little respites of freedom from my race because I’m an actor, because I’m known and I’m treated a different way from an anonymous Asian American man who has to walk around with that… By the way, that’s an illusion for me. At the end of the day, they always see it, but I can kind of have temporary… fame can be a temporary balm, but-
Juliana Sohn:
You can be John Cho first, and Asian second-
John Cho:
Yes. Yes.
Juliana Sohn:
… in somebody else’s eyes.
John Cho:
But it’s always there and I know it. That’s the way it is in America, people see that first. But, yeah, I have great sympathy, I guess, I’ll just amen your point, instead of answering a question. Yes, I have great sympathy, because I’ve seen it so much and they’re my friends.
Juliana Sohn:
So when you had a son, did you have any anxiety about how he would grow up and wonder if he would have the same kinds of burdens? And did you try to shield him from any of that?
John Cho:
For whatever reason, I wasn’t that worried. Maybe it was a generational hope. I just spent most of my time being delighted. I had a boy first and a daughter second, and I immediately, by default, did some of my dad’s tough boy practices on him, which I was quickly advised against by my wife. I’m not all that worried. He doesn’t seem to have that so far.
Catherine Hong:
Well, back to what you mentioned before, we talked about the Judy Blume book, where the punishment was “Go to your room.” And I thought that was the easiest, most lame punishment, because we were spanked. Did you have to do that thing where your hands are in the air? Were you punished in that classic Korean punishment style?
John Cho:
Well, I was beaten. I mean, yeah, that’s a classic. That’s a worldwide classic.
Catherine Hong:
What were you beaten with? I was beaten with a wooden spoon, personally. And for many years I was afraid to look at the spoon, because every time I saw my mom reach for the spoon, even to cook, I would think about being hit with the spoon, and I-
Juliana Sohn:
What’d I do wrong?
John Cho:
I think it was hands mostly, and the Lincoln Logs, whatever was around. But I’m trying to remember if the belt was there, I can’t remember that. It wasn’t that bad, but I got a good beating after that Tales of a Fourth Grade Nothing quip, I’ll tell you that much. But it tailed off. I have told another story, as one does, with some Korean friends. We were comparing beating stories. And I had a friend who, he and his sister were told by their mother, “That’s it. I’m sending you back to Korea.” And she got the suitcases down from the closet, and said, “Get inside.” And she zipped them up.
Catherine Hong:
In the suitcase?
John Cho:
Yeah. There were just wailing inside the suitcases.
Juliana Sohn:
Oh, my God, what trauma!
Catherine Hong:
That’s a new one. I mean, I’m sorry for laughing. When I bring up beating children, I’m laughing. I know it seems horrendous to people, but honestly I was stunned as a kid that other kids, that it wasn’t a normal thing that you got spanked.
John Cho:
Yeah. It was very normal.
Juliana Sohn:
When we have a guest who’s brave enough to talk about being beat up as a kid, there’s a part of me that thinks, oh my God, thank goodness that you’re bringing this up, because we’ve all been through it. And there’s another part of me that wonders, how do we further this conversation? I think laughter and just kind of acknowledging it is one way of dealing with it. But I just think it’s really important that we put it out there and just even start talking about it. There’s a lot to be celebrated. And a lot to, I guess, you could say unpack. I hate that word but I think, because Koreans are being celebrated, having achieved so much in recent years, I think people don’t want to ruin that celebratory mood by actually discussing some of the hardships about growing up and the fullness of what it means in our culture.
John Cho:
I didn’t know people were hiding it. It seemed like it was pretty out in the open.
Catherine Hong:
John, I have learned that you narrated a PBS special on the Korean War, which I didn’t realize you had done. And I started watching that, and I thought was terrific. Tell me a little bit about what you learned or what that experience was like working on that special.
John Cho:
I’m very interested in the Korean War in general, one, because it’s such, obviously, the defining event of my parents’ lives and therefore a defining event in mine. So I’m always curious about what happened. It’s a very confusing event. Everything about it is so blurry, even if you read the most concise textbook, to me, it doesn’t really explicate what happened. I’m struggling to recall anything specific I learned from that documentary but I’m always fascinated. And I guess it’s also combined with the reticence of my parents’ generation to really get into it except in sort of broad general statements.
Catherine Hong:
What are some things that as a kid you knew about the Korean War from your parents? What was your understanding of their experience?
John Cho:
My father’s very conservative, so there was a real kind of… I think the story I got that I’m trying to understand better was a real black and white political experience between right and left. There was this great war between democracy and communism. So I think he sort of sees it in a classic Western political lens, and that’s a lot of immigrants I’ve found
Catherine Hong:
Yeah. There are a lot of our dads, our generation’s dads are Republican or secretly Republican or voting conservatively.
John Cho:
Yes. Yes. I mean, and I was saying that’s seems to be the case with Cubans and Vietnamese as well in America, so it’s a self-selecting group, maybe, the ones that immigrate, I don’t know. It was this great battle, this great political battle.
Juliana Sohn:
Beyond the Korean War, I think the military dictatorship in the ’70s and ’80s are a really interesting time. And I think even just watching some of the K-dramas, like is it the IMF? When the Korean economy tanked, and just how many people ended up it destroying their lives. There’s this K-drama I’m watching right now where this wealthy family have to go into hiding. There are just pieces of history that are coming through that I just never even knew existed.
John Cho:
Yeah, same. I’m getting some of that in fiction. I mean, I was reading, I read a novel called Offerings, set against the backdrop of the IMF collapse. In it, it goes back to the ’70s and ’80s, flashbacks to these student demonstrations. And I actually learned a lot about some basic stuff about contemporary Korean history that I had no idea. The Korea that they left, essentially, I know less about than the Korea that they were born into.
Juliana Sohn:
Well, people talk about immigrants and how their politics and their identity is sort of arrested development from the time that they left the country of origin. It’s not surprising that our immigrant story and our parents are who they are, because maybe their identity and their opinions were formed. And they stopped developing from the ’70s in Korea, politically.
John Cho:
I always say that the version of Korean culture that the immigrants brought over, they pickled it, and now that version of Korean culture and cuisine, and all of it is now American, because it doesn’t exist as such in Korea anymore.
Juliana Sohn:
Absolutely.
John Cho:
So we’ve absorbed that, that’s just American now. I go to Seoul, and at one time, I’m sure LA’s Koreatown really looked like Seoul, but now they don’t resemble each other very much anymore. I’m in New York right now, and I ate at a restaurant the other night, a Korean restaurant, and they were using different ingredients here. I had like this burrata, pear, kimchi, heirloom tomato dish that was very fascinating. And I was thinking, wow, this is a meal that I wouldn’t have in Koreatown, but it could be something I would have in Seoul, based on my last trip there. So it was very, very interesting to me. By the way, I should give a shout out to the restaurant, 8282 on the Lower East Side. But I think it’s very interesting, because when I was growing up, Korean TV was a very low quality, that’s how we thought about it, as compared to American television shows. But I look back now, I was just recently watching the original Knight Rider on Netflix, because it was a show I liked when I was a kid. And I was like, “Wow, that show, it’s not great!” And so I don’t know why… But anyway it felt like they were lagging behind or that industry, the industry in Korea was lagging behind, and now it feels like what they’re doing in entertainment is actually spilling over and helping Asian American actors, instead of the other way around. So it’s been a fascinating turn of events.
Juliana Sohn:
So your Korean was really quite good in Columbus. Have you had offers or been approached to working in Korea?
John Cho:
Only like a couple of times really. That hasn’t really come across my desk very often.
Juliana Sohn:
Is that something you’re interested in maybe pursuing on your end?
John Cho:
I might be, yeah. I’ve always been afraid to act in Korean except in little bursts, because I think you have to have a real grasp of the language you’re acting in, in order to do a good job. You have to sink into it really deep, in my opinion. I’m a person that works from the words in. Sometimes people work from the intent and out to the words, but I think I start with the words, and sink into them. So the way I work, I think it would be difficult to work in a language that I don’t feel super proficient in. But on the other hand, I’m interested in it. You know who changed my mind on that is probably Stephen Yeun, and watching him act in Korean. I go, “Wow, that worked. He’s pulling it off.” And I thought, well, that’s very fascinating. Maybe I’ll give it a shot one of these days. And I also like the idea of, I guess, I’ve been known as an actor, who’s the Asian guy who seems American, whatever that means. That’s an incredibly flawed phrase, but I’m using it to illustrate a point. And I like the idea of me speaking Korean on screen one day, and doing it well. And, obviously, I have people who speak Korean in my life, who I love, so I would like to do that as a gesture, also. If I could dutifully do that, if I could execute it well. But what’s the point, there are a lot of good Korean actors, I don’t know what the point is for them, for the filmmaker!
Catherine Hong:
You posted a picture of yourself at the Oscars with the Parasite cast, and you said that everybody was congratulating you for your performance in Parasite. You’re just in a picture with them and they’re like, “Oh, you must have been in that movie! Good job!”
John Cho:
I got a lot of pats on the back, “Congrats.”
Juliana Sohn:
Congrats for being Asian.
John Cho:
Maybe that was it.
Catherine Hong:
Thank you to John Cho for joining us on K-Pod, a production of Korean American Story. John’s book, Troublemaker, is available now. Our audio engineer is AJ Valente. Our executive producer is HJ Lee. You can follow us on Instagram at Korean American Story. You can follow Juliana at Juliana_Sohn, and you can follow me at CatherineHong100. Thanks for listening and take care.
Credits
Co-host, Producer, Photographer
Juliana Sohn @juliana_sohn
Co-host, Producer, Editor
Catherine Hong @catherinehong100
Audio Engineer
AJ Valente
Executive Producer
HJ Lee